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Hiya Eagle! Sorry did it sound like I was trying to redefine it? I was just thinking out loud. Obviously I need to drink more Diet Pepsi before I open my mouth in the morning. Especially after a late night. While I readjust my DP IV drip...please continue the discussion. :D

I didn't believe PFAL hook, line and sinker. When I took the class I believed what sounded correct, and tossed the illogical cr@p, the rest I set on the back burner and am still sifting through it. But like Free Soul I believed hook, line and sinker that those who were "ordained" would do what was right by the body and not have ulterior motives. Fully realizing how much of the leadership was corrupt was what hurt me when I was shown the door. Just thinking about it all now just... :wacko: (That's just wacco!) I have always questioned the doctrinal stuff, maybe that is why they showed me the door? Ya think?

I know in the Ten Commandments God says, "Thou shalt not murder" He also says, "Thou shalt not steal" (nothing about crackers). But I strongly disagree with VP's interpretation that their are no degrees of sin (with the exception of the "unforgiveable sin"). In the New Testatment many "sins" are singled out as being something that God finds repulsive and murder is one of them. The emphasis in the NT on sin is "intent". In other words God does not condone stealing, but if a person is starving and steals a cracker then in some manner attempts to give reparation to the victim then God can forgive the sin. In that instance both non evil intent and repentence are evident. It is available for a murderer to gain His forgiveness, but it would require true repentence and I think that part of that would be honest attempt at reparation with the living victims. I don't personally feel that a trip to the confessional and 12 Our Fathers or 10 Hail Mary's would cover it. For our part we are human so forgiveness is difficult for us. But if we put on the mind of Christ...

You don't offend; I agree with you. I just didn't put all of that into the post. I didn't think of it at the time but it is true for me as well. I think the spirit is in me, like blood is in me or perhaps more like my genetic code is in me. It is not seperate in any way from me, but obviously not grafted to me...hard to explain. I never liked the whole hands behind my hands analogy. It sounded more like manipulation than inspiration to me. We are exhorted to "put on the mind of Christ" it would seem to me that the accomplishment of this would be easier if the spirit of Christ within were actually part of a person and not "behind" or even "on" them like a shirt. The logistics of that are still boggling my mind. With that said I am going to finish my morning infusion of caffein and try to activate my brain to perhaps unboggle this thing. Maybe the spirit realm is simpler than we try to make it...like TBone said.

Wow! That is a beautiful analogy! The presence of spirit inside us obviously has more than one purpose, as we can all attest to with the scriptural knowledge and background that we have collectively. But in light of its use by God as a "communication" device it seems logical to me to think that it is primarily for our benefit than His. He after all is God and can do whatever He chooses, but we are not so powerful and sometimes our ability to grasp spiritual things is limited. Perhaps its presence alone allows our minds to comprehend things that we otherwise would not or could not whether they be spiritual or physical, (like science or mechanics or whatever as I have also had something "dawn" on me in those areas as well) Anyway just thinking out loud. Reading all of your posts brought this to mind.

May I be so bold as to inject a personal comment? That whole definition of VPW never really did anything for me. The idea that God would be limited to whom He could be speak seemed absurd at the time that I was taught it and we all know now that it is completely ridiculous. So... for me to understand the way that holy spirit works in me in realation to my hiding the Word in my heart I simplified things. I study the Word, I remember all that I can of it (not in retemories or in memorizing, but learning and trying to understand). As my life progresses and events occure the holy spirit brings certain verses or sections to the forefront of my thoughts and enlightens them or points out relevent information contained in them in relation to how they are relevent to my present state of mind, circumstances and events. Somethimes the sections have nothing to do with my life but something happening around me may trigger a personal understanding of an event or orientalism found in the Bible. I believe that this is the holy spirit working in me to help bring understanding of the Word. I hope that that makes sense. Perhaps it is too simple, but it works for me. Sunesis- Great points! Wonderful how you put that information together so simply. You have caused me to rethink and critique some things. Thanks. So sorry to have jumped into your thread like that. I'll sit back and finish my coffee now. Please continue.

"Not to mention the oppression and regulation... you WILL attend YOUR twig at 11am... you WILL work at your ASSIGNED work station at your ASSIGNED time... you WILL NOT sit in your tent and listen to the evening teaching on the radio... PHOOEY!!!! I was secretly mortified and thrilled when they cancelled it, just like I was secretly mortified and thrilled when I got booted from the corps..." ============================ I am sooo glad that I am not the only one to feel that way! My first ROA was a blast! I was young, and it was an adventure. I was thrilled to be "trusted" with a job. (Oh how times change ) I went out WOW that year, it was 1982. Every ROA after that was a chore.... The food was good when I had time to eat, the fellowship was great when I had time to talk, the showers were adaquit when I forced my way into the closed tent because I didnt believe God enough for my supervisors to let me out of work early enough to catch them open, (Never mind that my second job was to attend the "MOG" backstage at the evening service, sometimes that was the only reason they let me in the showers.) Tent city was horrid no matter what I did, the Way Woods, the House of His Healing presence, the Fountain of Living Waters, the mini concerts, the seminars and other events were very cool if I could find time to attend. One year I did get a ride on a cushman as I was running late (go figure) to my second job or something and Howard A. pulled up and offered me a ride. That was really nice of him. I think the thing that really bugged me the most was despite the fact that I was sticky, bug bitten, back aching, ankle twisted and exhausted I had to put on this sickening sweet smile and say "Bless you" like I meant it so as not to distract or cause the MOG to be even a smidgen out of fellowship before his great teaching, because if he was that meant that I, yes I would be responsible for the body of believers not getting blessed. But hey, no pressure! Ahh...beautiful Ohio...How I HATE that song!!

"Eyes, I think "lurker" is the word you were looking for.... and lurkers are always welcome. It's the "trolls" and "drive by posters" who are infuriating. ^_^ [/color]" That's right, "lurker", I kind of like that word. It makes me feel a little nefarious. I promise not to be a troll or a drive by poster if you get me one of those ice cream sundays you are passing out. (Sorry Mom and Mrs. Owens I was never really good at eating things in the propper order. ) Thanks for all the great welcomes! Now I will shut up and eat my icecream.

DMiller, I'll take that cup of coffee if you got some cream that needs a home. Year2027, God loves you as well friend. Thank you both for the warm welcome. I just love reading the diverse opinions that are expressed in these threads. The amount of research and dare I say revelation that is also shared is very illuminating as well. Please forgive me if I do not post a great deal. I assure you that despite my lack of interaction I am not a "hanger outer" (you have a name for it but I have forgotten it already), nor am I a person with no opinion, nor am I antisocial, I just do not post a lot. Thanks so much again for the welcome and the cup of coffee. I am sitting back now to drink said coffee and read some more threads. God Bless!!

Hi all, I have been reading GS for years and seldom post, in fact I forgot my sign in name and had to re-do everything just recently. But this particular thread caught my interest, sooo... First of all I would like to say "Great topic"! I especially enjoy the responses in this one. To Year2027 you took my thinking in a completely different direction and it is incredible! Also great work on the whole "Whale/Dragon" stuff. I always knew there was something hinky about that word but never took the time to look. To everyone else Please continue I am truely enjoying this one, it is enlightening. In case you are wondering I am not being sarcastic at all, I really am liking this thread.