Eyesopen

Wierwille needed to have the adoration of people...the more people, the more he liked it.

The bottom line is that cult leaders cannot be cult leaders unless there are cult followers.

Absolutely! Most that followed him did so because they loved God and wanted to serve Him and his people. When that became unavailable or impractical they melted away. But the corps had been sucked deeper into the web of deception. They couldn't just 'melt away'. They had to unentangle themselves. Some felt they needed to save others as they pushed towards the door, and this sometimes entangled them more. Kind of like trying to leave a large party and always getting side tracked while saying your goodbyes.

Then there were those that liked it in the web. They liked the drama, the secrets and the power.

But VP he didn't care for any of them/us. He just needed them. He needed the corps, the way builders, the leaves, the WOW's, the secretaries, the people. As waysider said "Who would have cleaned the toilets or strung the chairs" (or something like that )

Man, that's a tough one. Because I think human nature would have been in play, even if there wasn't a structure in place to cultivate the kind of people they wanted as leadership. It is human nature to climb the ladder of success not matter what the group or its structure. And let's face it, twi was geared to keep people moving along the conveyer belt: fellowship, pfal, the int and adv classes, the collateral classes, fellowship coordinator, WOW, College Program, Corps, Leadership... for many, they simply jumped through whatever hoop was placed in front of them, in an effort to be a better person, be more spiritual, get closer to God...

And for many, it must be said, they jumped through the hoops to get more "goodies"... more power, more authority, maybe even get paid by twi and not have to worry about a real job. But having a way corps training program streamlined the process, for sure. And it allowed the Vicster to personally cultivate and groom those who had the traits he was looking for... and to place them right where he wanted them. No question of that.

I guess I'm coming back around, though, to my original position on this... there were basically three kinds of way corps: the ones who were seeking to be leadership, and the ones who really wanted to serve God with all their heart, and the ones who were just going along to get along. I just don't think you can lump all those different kinds of people (not to mention all their different experiences, some hardening themselves to become leadership twi-style, and others seeing the errors and fighting against them) into one category.

I think ole Doc Vic would have eventually gotten all that he went after. He was after all despite his other faults a charismatic leader. But the WC certainly stream lined the operation. Things are always faster and smoother when you have people helping you that believe in you. Ask any politician, or athlete, or actor how far or how fast they could have gone without help.

I also agree with Rascals interpretation that the corps that "knew" acted as a shield for the upper leadership. And the happy go lucky knot heads (play on the wooden decoy analogy) who remained blissfully ignorant for a time were the proverbial bait.

The turning point for any corps person was when they really understood the doctrine that they were helping to promote, encourage or support was somehow a lie. Whatever the situation was, whether they learned of VP's motorcoach escapades, LCM's adultery or they simply realized that much of the Ways doctrine wasn't biblical...whatever it was...they had a choice to make. They needed to decide individually if they wanted to continue to perpetrate the lie. It is at that point that the person's true motive for becoming corps was illuminated. This is also the point in which one can begin to asses blame if that is your wish. Because it is here that the true good hearted believers parted ways either mentally or physically from TWI. It did not happen all at once to be sure and in some respect it is still happening.

But the true question that I ask at this point is "What is the profit of assigning blame?" I am not saying that some are blameless, nor do I excuse the atrocities committed by soooo many. For myself it does not help to assign blame as I myself have skeletons that I am more than a little ashamed of, so I also am to blame for my little speck of universal chaos. I stayed much longer than I should have...I saw the writing on the wall and tried to clean it off...to no avail. Then I hung on for prides sake...how foolish was that?

Should they be blamed one and all for wanting more, for whatever reason? Should they be blamed for trying to fix it? Should they be blamed...

I look in the mirror of my own soul and blame myself enough thank you, give me more if it makes you feel better but my cup already runeth over.

You have said all that need be said.

I give my prayers for your friends, for you and for all concerned.

Well spoken cman.

You are all so very kind! And I love each and everyone of you. I feel like having one big HUGE birthday group hug! Then we can all toast life together with our favorite libation! (The squashed one...that was me last night!)

Thank you all for your kind wishes and the beautiful pics, poems, and song! I look forward to someday meeting you all at the Bema? If its true ...if not how about meeting in Chicago...or better yet Paris? Anyplace but New Knoxville.

Really you all make this place ROCK!! I'm so glad your here and I'm here and were all here together...did that make any sense? :wacko: Ok so maybe I still got a little extra "libation" still in me. :P

Rainbow- Never fear my dear...I can read anything as long as I have my contacts in right! :blink:

My dear Rainbow, a person's beliefs are carried by the heart. So when one is seen the other is as well. A person does not always speak or preach their true beliefs. Many speak/preach what they think is the "right" thing, but their heart knows the difference and eventually it will have its way. Most of us, certainly most ex corps have unfortunately experienced this "Lie" (not sure if "lie" is the right word, perhaps someone could find a more appropriate word?)

You are a rare commodity in this day and time as your words very clearly reflect your heart and hence true beliefs. So my dear you really are an easy read.

This is not a bad thing, in fact it is, IMHO a very trusting and loving thing, and dare I say what Christ might have called a "Christian" thing? Within the household all should be feel safe enough to be both trusting and loving.

I thank you for that trust and love and I shall endeavor to protect both.

God Bless you my dear sister in Christ, I do love you dearly and look forward to future communication and communion with you.

Teresa

P.S. Thank you so much for the birthday wishes. I had a blast last night ...had one beer too many ...but I survived the night! (Can you tell I really love all of these wonderful "emoticons"?) :P

Knowing you, even here, improves my life. Your voice cuts through much of the ambient noise.

Rainbow- I think that QT has said, in her usual verbose manner, what I might have said. I often keep things a bit too short and direct thus losing content and understanding. So thank you QT and Rainbow for taking the effort to "speak" so succinctly.

I was once "run off" by the big bad "newbie bashers" that sometimes visit this site. But I'll not be run off again. Mostly thanks to you Rainbow and all of the wonderfully hearted people that are becoming more loquacious here at GS. Many of whom have responded on this thread.

Thank you for sharing your heart here...all of you. :) It brings my heart great joy.

Love ya,

Teresa

That's t&O...T&A is something else entirely

Sorry, T&O and Oak, it was unintentional.

I was not trying to be sarcastic or inflammatory...really. But I would like some elaboration because I really didn't understand.

But if my query goes unanswered that is ok as well.

You asked, what is "doing the truth" in your opinion?.. I was actually just repeating your words.. Doing the truth.. One would have to know truth to do it. But it has nothing to do with any point I've made. But if one were to know THE TRUTH, then I guess it would have to be something that can be 'done" and therefore action is being taken to do it.. lol..

Hi, I've just been reading along on this thread and up to now have been most intrigued by the interaction between TrustandObey and Oakspear. But I have to say T&A you lost me here. Please elaborate.

Thanks :)

Watered Garden - I wish you the happiest of birthdays!

May the roads rise to meet you,

May the wind be always at your back,

And may God hold you in the hollow of His hand.

Rainbow - I see you have mastered the insert... well done and great choice!

Eyesopen I wished I looked like your avatar. :)

I wouldn't mind looking like that myself. :D

(((((((((((((((((((Dot))))))))))))))))))

My heart goes out to you Dot.

You have made such a huge sacrifice on the alter of TWI...but perhaps Rainbow has a good idea?? :)

God Love you always.

We don't know each other, but that has never stopped me from wishing someone a happy birthday. After all I may get invited to the party!

I don't post a lot but I do read a lot. Your posts often give me pause and reason to think a bit deeper. Your insights are wonderfully fresh. Thank you!

When Irish eyes are smilin'

All the world smiles too

So on this day your of your birth

I will smile for you.

Happy Birthday Kathy, and God Bless you always! :)

But how do you determine what are true doctrines?

That's the rub isn't it?

Perhaps that is why so many people followed ole VP, or the Pope. Looking for someone to answer that question.

And then many come here...still looking.

Wow, don't know how I missed a birthday greeting. We're both fairly new here so I will dispense with the "welcome" but I will say that I love reading your posts. Happy belated birthday!

As the Irish say:

May you live as long as you want

and never want as long as you live.

I do like to pick Irish fiddle tunes though. Does that count?

The Irish aren't too particular on who they adopt...as long as they are fun! :D Now if you can if you can drink a lot and still stand or fight well then you can date our women folk; if you can do both...well then we'll bypass the dating and just make you one of the family. :P

Lori- I knew about the black Irish part mostly because my Grandmother's hair was black as midnight...so I ask "How come?" The rest of it about the coat of arms took years to figure out. There aren't a lot of dependable records that go back very far in years and there are so many variations of the names, as clan members attempted to hide themselves from persecution. Still trying to find our original tartan. Grandma refused to teach us anything Irish. She always just said "We are American now!" She had no way of knowing how the world would change. :)

"O'Shanta McLachaseetay

For Yea, me lads and lassies-------------"

Sorry. Got a bit carried away then,didn't I?

Nope. No Irish here. Nary e'en a wee bit.

Fess up...you touched that Blarney stone one too many times didn't you!!!

Here's an Alaskan joke.....

Q. What's an arctic fox?

A. An eskimo with all her teeth!

Out freeking standing!!! Absolutely love it!

Nevada

Hookers and Poker and alcohol and meth and nuklear waste and area 51 and scorpions and sagebrush and CSI! (Someday they will say "Nevada" correctly on the show and someday they will stop saying DUI, cause we dont have DUI we have Driving While Intoxicated DWI. And if we're really lucky they will stop showing any city other than Laughlin as being 2 hours from Vegas)

OOPPS almost forgot:

Home of "RENO 911!!!!" and proud of it!!

I got Inland North. No surprise there. I must have got it from my Michigander parents! I personally was born and raised in Nevada. I would have thought that some western accent had caught on. But I dont buy Pop, I buy Diet Pepsi.

Aint that the truth of the matter!!!

Happy St Patty's Day!

You may not be Irish, but if you keep telling such true stories about us...well we won't hold it agin ya! :D

A few weeks later Tom came to our fellowship and I spent some time with him one-on-one. He addressed none of my concerns. When I told him what John had said his answer was that he didn't need to work the Word, if the Trustees were behind the class, that was good enough for him.

How incredibly typical! John couldn't answer you so he passes the buck to the next guy on the tree. He assumes that this guy is actually doing his job and preparing for the class but doesn't tell him about your concerns. So when Tom shows up you basically blind side him and having been unprepared for you he can't even give you a good "reason" why your concerns are not valid. Instead he actually tells you the truth, he's not "working the word" to make the material his own because the Trustees have placed their "seal of approval" on it all so it must be correct. Inferring that MOG that high in the tree don't make mistakes!

Wow...what a load...sometimes I am so embarrassed to have ever been associated with some of these people.

Happy St Patty's Day everyone!!

My mother was French and Irish, clan Coan. A black Irish clan that in ancient times apparently were friends with or guarded the King. (According to the coat of arms anyway).

My dad was German through and through.

The disagreements at our house were always a loud and boisterous affair. Never any violence mind you just really loud. (Mostly mom after dad had quetly pushed the right buttons so he could sit back and laugh while she got all worked up)

As for wearing green...my eyes are green and I say that counts for something. :P

It was mechanical and it was forced. You move your lips your throat your tongue. You form the words, you do the speaking. Exactly, it was me me me or you you you doing it all along. If we were going to be overflowing, it would have just happened.

Self hypnosis...hmmm...hadn't thought of that. Thanks! I always appreciate something new to think on.

"LaShanda, Malakasita, get y'all narrow butts over here!"

Having lived in Baltimore for quite a while, I can say that clearly there were some people naming their kids this way."

You would think that if God was truly inspiring people in a specific setting to say something specific to inspire this perticular group of people that the God who created the heavens and the earth could communicate something that would knock the socks off of everyone in that room. Instead, we heard the same thing over and over again except maybe in a different order and usually lining up with the most recent teaching series....which was also something that had been taught repeatedly over the years.

I must admit that I also noticed quite a bit of this repeating business even in Corps meetings. I still hold that not everyone is given the gift of tongues.

I Corinthians 12:28-30

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues

Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Clearly all do not have the gift and even less have both gifts of tongues and interpretation.

I read this thread last night and decided to go back and read the section in I Corinthians again. Low and behold but it read the same way it did the first time that I had read it long before ole VP put in his two cents worth of incorrect interpretation.

The gifts (all of them not just the 9 listed) are from God they are His gifts and He decides who gets what and/or how many according to the need of the body. The gifts are for profit to the body of Christ. Therefore they are given to those who can administer and operate them at the time.

I remember VP saying that it was stupid to have one person with Tongues and another with interpretation, because what if one of them doesn't show up for church? How stupid that sounded then and now...why did he always feel the need to limit God? God clearly states that He could give a man several gifts as He (God) desired. VP interpreted that verse as saying that man had the ability to get extra gifts from God because the man wanted them. I don't know about you but my child can ask for a motocross bike all day long but until I believe that he can operate it safely and in the correct places I am not giving that gift to him. It certainly would not benefit the family if he were to wreck the stupid thing or worse hurt someone.

The chapter goes on to use a couple of analogies that emphasize the different jobs of the individual parts of the body and how each one is important and dependent upon all of the others to make one whole and entire body. Those parts that appear feeble or uncomely should not be cast out or critisized. God gives them something extra to make them equal to everyone else so there is no schizm in the body.

I do not see anywhere in the section that states "All 9 all the time". I think that was just another TWI thing to make people feel inferior to others that "were walking in the spirit" doncha know.

As for true manifestations of Tongues, Interpretation or Prophecy. It is obvious from this thread that many "faked" it and I do not doubt the truth of those statements. As I have already demonstrated I do not believe that God gave everyone the gift of tongues. Think about it how does that benefit the body of Christ? Perhaps at the true moment of becoming born again the new believer could have spoken in tongues to "prove" it to themselves (I haven't gotten back into this research yet), but what would be the benefit to the body if every part of the body could all do the same thing? Using God's analogy "if your eye could see, smell, hear, taste, touch, pump blood, walk etc what would everything else do?

So thats what I see...how about ya'll? :D