Eyesopen

What the hell did you stay for 26 years then? I saw plenty saved, right in my own fellowship...oh yeah, lives turned around too...the Word can do that, ya know?

I do not doubt that some people were saved by the Word of God that was held forth. But, I believe that, correct me if I'm wrong you originally accredited those savings to VP and his ministry. Right? Not to the Word or God.

Are you switching tracks or just trying to confuse me?

VPW had a powerful ministry. How do I know? Jesus Christ said you will know them by their fruit. Well the fruit of VPW's efforts was 100,000 people getting born again. 100,000? That's called the mighty hand of the Lord moving to save....regardless of what weaknesses VPW may have had in his life.

Yup! There it is...

Im sure that if you looked hard enough someone out there still believes that Koresh was the "real Deal", or Moe Berg or any of the off the wall bible quoters anywhere.

People still hold a religious fervency for L.Ron Hubbard and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi even though their stuff has been debunked time and time again for decades, it goes with the cult territory

Im not going to get worked up that someone thinks Wierwille is 'The Real Deal", go right ahead believe it. Its your life

The Titanic is unsinkable and the moon is made of creamcheese too.

I agree mstar1, some people still believe in the "holiness" of Charlie Manson too. That doesn't make them right.

Looking back -- going out witnessing -- our focus was not Jesus Christ it was trying to get people in the class. How many Sunday night teachings or corp teachings can you remember that focused on our relationship with our Lord? The focus was always that he was not God. Okay, I got that, but what about him being our Lord? The one whose footsteps I'm supposed to walk in? The one who is God's example for us to follow? The one who died for us?

Pretty scary when you think about what was lost or almost lost with TWI. As I recall it was near blasphemy to even say "Jesus" in certain situations. I remember one time in Res. something wonderful had happened (wonderful things were in short supply when I was in res) and someone said "Praise Jesus". They got hauled of for counselling with Rev. Fart.

Full Circle, you hang in there babe. I like your posts. You often come up with some tantelizing tid bit that I can chew on.

As far as the mighty "Doc defenders" I can relate to ya'll and your arguments in favor of ole Vic. Up until a couple of days ago I would have probably joined you or at least remained neutral. But I have seen the light! No really I have. I don't know who posted this quote on another thread but I liked it so much I printed it:

"...I have tired to keep memory alive; I have tried to fight those who would forget. Because if we forget, we are guilty, we are accomplices...I swore never to be silent whenever, wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation...Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." Elie Wiesel, Nobel Peace Prize Acceptance Speech, December 10, 1986.

I have sworn my life to defending the weak and oppressed, both in my job and personal life and yet when it came to VP and his crimes I had continued to make excuses for his behavior...never again. He has been relegated to the same catagory that I place all sexual predators, scum of the earth.

This decision was not based solely upon the stories that I have heard or even on the personal experiences that I could add to that pot of knowledge. The decision was cemented when I realized that ole Vic never repented, never asked forgiveness, in short...he didn't care about his victims nor even his own "soul" until the very end. Even then his concern was not for their pain or their forgiveness (so far as we have been told by CG). Ole Vic was concerned that his legacy wasn't being carried out as he would have it. This behavior, based upon my experience (which is considerable) comes from a hardened heart. I am beginning to think that ole Vic was a textbook narcisistic sociopath, among other things.

I find it interesting that the instigator who started this thread has not been heard from since the first & only posting. I envision this person sitting back & laughing at the flurry of posts, saying "well, my work here is done!"

Baiting people is not cool.

I was beginning to wonder where he had gotten off to as well. It's not nice to open a can of worms and run away.

It is Sunday morning, you bring VPW a shirt he plans to wear. He makes a comment about your breasts. You giggle your 18- year-old giggle cause he is the Man of God. Then he touches them, running his old hands over your young perky statues. He grabs your butt and pulls you close and French kisses you. Then, he pushes your head down to his zipper as it flies open. He tells you, it is your ministry – your gift is your body and he is going to help you learn. He forces you to touch and feel and place your lips. You choke for a moment but he pushes you into him…Your inhibitions are not there as he offered you a 7 up and you feel kinda funny.

Thank you Dot, for making me want to puke!

Do you mean like dotmatrix's sterling example?

Hmmm... yes?

I don't recall any questionaires in CFS. That doesn't mean that there weren't any I just don't remember it. I remember being VERY uncomfortable in the class. Both when I took it (every time I took it) and when I instructed it. In my mind the ministry (or most of the people in it) really didn't have the proper credentials or education to be teaching such a class in the manner that they taught it. Of course I felt the same way about the biblical counselling class.

VPW's Christian Family and Sex Class was only a hint of his lascivious attitudes. When I was in residence – VPW had a pajama part [an informal setting for making a good soft-sell of his perverted lifestyle] and showed us that porn video – remember I said I was in Family Corps – there were teens present! At one point during the pajama party VPW invited a sixteen year old girl to the front of the room and shows her this pen as he describes to the rest of us that it has little figures of a man and a woman having sex and you make them do it by moving the pen up and down. VPW's very presence always had the power to sedate the intellectual and moral functions of his most devote followers – there we were cutting up with jokes during the video – he's laughing along with us – all the while slipping in all that nonsense about how he's so renewed his mind that this doesn't bother him or shock him.

Now I know where my LC and his wife got their "permission" to show Lesbian Porn to the TC and BC wives. So glad I walked out on that one...

Edited to correct poor spelling.

quote: May I assume that the person you refer to here as the "only One" is VP?

Actually, it's God (note the word One is capitalized). Jean's right here and OKd me responding for her. I want to interject something since jean and I have stirred up such dust and since we may be ousted soon.

I was kind of hoping that it was God to whom she was referring. But I wasn't entirely certain, given the many times that the idea that VP was dead now and could not speak for himself idea had been repeated. I am glad that you cleared up that misunderstanding up for me.

He chose his victims based on the data he had on the corps. That little "my life before the corpses" paper showed him who would do what. People with past abuse were often the ones singled out.

Hmm...hadn't thought of that. I lived a Norman Rockwell childhood. Nothing sinister to report. Hmmm...more pieces fall into place.

There is only One who knows the whole truth about what happened 20 or 30 years ago and He's not talking.

May I assume that the person you refer to here as the "only One" is VP? If so you should know that he was not the only one alive nor involved in TWI 20 to 30 years ago. Other people were there, living in the same place as him, eating the same food, breathing the same air. They also would know what happened. Would it not be prudent to listen to them?

If you do not think so then please explain why their accounts are worth so little and his so much.

I didn't have the INTEREST to read her account. Considering my only interaction with her, I'm not so sure I'm going to concede that she's a reputable poster.

I...just can't believe you said that. <_<

Eyes, I talked with somebody who knew vpw back then. I have read others who were told the same thing....It has been said that it was indeed in papers...that he got caught with his secretary....shrug This I have never seen.

I do remember vpw talking at the advanced class.....how he had moved out into a motel room to get some peace and quiet and study....but that the gossip and tongues in town were wagging about divorce and stuff.

I have to wonder in hind sight if he wasn`t telling that story in case any of this resurfaced.

I have no proof, only that the story has been told from several different sources.

One fellow that came into chat for a while... said that his mother went to school with vpw. She told some really interesting stories of him back in the day.

Rascal, thanks for replying. He was an amazingly insiduous man wasnt he?! He was good at what he did, steal, kill and destroy. I believe that this particular verse is refering to the "false ministers" and not the Devil himself.

Perhaps Sunesis is correct, VP may never have been born again. That certainly would put a new twist on everything and expain a few things as well. It is hard to imagine our brother in Christ being so horrible and evil. But then I remember that it was Judas who betrayed Christ himself. Then it is not quite so "hard" to imagine.

Just thinking out loud. Please continue the discussion.

As I have heard the truth (and actually digested it this time) I have changed my mind. Does this make me wise? Maybe a little. :P

The excitement of word over the world from the mid seventies is over.

The charismatic leaders are gone and they are left with a dull and boring Rosie...

...it's become an institution of self perpetuating mediocrity that feeds off the weak and bullies the naive.

Well said Groucho, it is amazing to me to see how TWI has changed. In my mind it plays like a color to black and white before and after scenario. My memories include a huge gathering of excited loving people at an ROA in full technocolor, but now I am handed this new picture of a sparse gatering of a few highly starched people listening to the droning monolog of an miserly, selfish old crone.

I missed the majority of the 90's. I was involved only on the fringe and only because my Mom was still active. So I missed Rosie, and the majority of LCM's crap. Then I did not have any contact after my mom was kicked out by my brother and his TC because she wouldn't denounce me and my other siblings. (How can a "loving" ministry do that to an old woman? How could my brother do that to his own mother? It still boggles the mind. ) So in my mind TWI made this change overnight.

I am not holding my breath waiting for TWI to make a comeback. In my mind it is dead I just need to bury it.

A corrupt man who was thrown out of his church for sexual indescretions....

Rascal somewhere I missed this information. Is there another thread, probably archived that explaines this or a document...something so I can get the whole story so to speak. Not that I don't believe you, but I just either forgot or didn't get this information.

Thanks.

Is it? Or is it about reopening old wounds that might be better left to heal, and recounting old horror stories under the guise of getting at the truth? Once again, VPW is DEAD and beyond the point of hurting anyone (unless we get a reenactment of Carrie).

I know people (not just from TWI) that have old wounds that are still open, some that have scabbed over but are not healing but festering instead, some that don't even know that they have been wounded and then those that have healed. Bottom line is all people are different. Some need to look at the weapons or their attackers to truely begin healing. Some don't.

You had a good experience in TWI. You received all that was promised on the green card. Excellent!!! Really! I would never even suggest that you forget that, throw it away or deny it. But didn't someone say on this thread that VP would be affecting Christianity for generations to come or something like that? Something about him making an impact with PFAL and some of what it taught now being accepted in the main stream? My point is that he is not beyond influencing people or hurting people. His doctrine and actions continue to hurt people everyday. The ministry he started still teaches that crap. Some people he hurt are still trying to recover (as attested to on this site everyday). The only thing he is beyond is reaping the joy of it all.

Everyone that has taken the time to post on this thread has made valid points. Some I agree with and some I don't but I will not be the person to tell them that they can't speak their mind. I will not be the person to tell them how to think or even try to influence how they think. We all have the right to speak, we all have the right to our own opinions.

Just to clarify, I never ever said anything ugly to jeaniam in private messages. I simply replied honestly to the questions that she asked. I did not initiate contact nor did I continue to answere her.... (ignoring the name calling and allegations entirely)....after she told me to never contact her again. I do not know how to paste pm`s, or I would in self defense..

I said nothing that I did not say right here in the open, I spoke carefully with much thought, and with all of the love and tact that I could muster.

I KNOW this is a lot to digest, I know that it is difficult to believe that people we loved and trusted could have betrayed us so.

It is much easier to believe that the folks presenting the other side of the stories are lying so as not to have to re evaluate ones entire spiritual understanding. I have nothing but compassion in my heart when exploring these issues and coming to grips with what happened.

I have tried to ignore the slams because I do not want this thread to end up in the soap opera forum. I don`t mind.

I do not care what I am called, but I want folks to know that I was not ugly to anybody in public or private.

I personally have not seen anything in your posts that suggested otherwise. So based on that admittedly incomplete information I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you had mirrored that same behavour in any PM that you had sent. If my post sounded like It was directed at you it was unintenional.

I suppose the best thing for me to say concerning my most recent post is "if the shoe fits, wear it".

Ummm eyes, Sound out 84 was in Nashville (about 5 hrs east of memphis) I was there too and had a ball.

Thanks Rascal, I was thinking "Grand ole Opera" and wrote Memphis I guess I should have had a V8 before I touched the keyboard. Had a blast at Sound Out though. I think the believers we stayed with that night were in Memphis. I don't remember anymore...those years were a whirlwind of meetings, events, work, way home, twig...etc. I'm certain you can relate.

Act2- Yes indeed you are one lucky person to have missed little princess Carrie M. I unfortunately got way too much of her. Two years in LR then off to Emporia to go in res with the little snit. I tried, no I really did! We stayed at opposite ends of the campus from each other. I only actually saw her during SNS or sometimes at a meeting. We avoided each other as much as possible. But then we went out LEAD together. (I really think it was orchestrated)

Our LEAD was one of those that didn't go so well. TWI got sued big time from about 70% of the group. The LEAD staff got reassigned, and those that survived to stay in the corps were separated from each other all assigned to different campuses some different countries. I saw a couple at corps week but LEAD was never mentioned again.

Anyway that is a whole different story...but for princess Carrie and I it all hit a head the first night in the mountains. She made some stupid comment in her midwest farm girl trying to be the hip Cali chick way, a comment that was an outright lie, something about the Limb of Arkansas, and I called her on it. Right there at the campfire in front of God and everyone. She of course acted contrite and abashed, after all she was LCM's sis how could she be wrong. And I was basically told to shut up and go away.

Of course after that I was a target. But now for two reasons, I had survived the LEAD experience unscathed because I did NOT take the advice of TWI, and I had openly embarassed the princess. Whatever...

Thank you Wolf for reminding me, (and probably some others) of just how much fun we had in res and on interum (Just loved the veggie crap at Emporia).

No really though, I hadn't thought of it as a money maker. But it certainly does appear that it did serve that purpose. Your other observations that it was basically a training program for salesmen sounds obsurd but I cannot deny the validity of the statement. We were taught some basic research skills, lots of repetition on the "classes" but come to think of it there really was a huge emphasis on "presentation" and sales, not only of the product, ie pfal but of yourself as a representative of the organization.

The idea that they SOLD us on was great, and could have worked I think had it been done correctly, but you're right...it WASN'T so.

Hard on??? That's brutal. Do YOU get hard ons for women? Hmm.

Please, she used a figure of speech to ask a question. Must it become a personal attack?

Can we not just answer the questions and discuss our differences as adults. Without all of this name calling and accusing?

WW and dooj- your words are wise

major idiot brainwashed people checking in to say hi

hi !

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Thanks! I don't care who you are that sh#t was funny!

My warmest greetings and birthday wishes to you.

Roy

From the very first post that I made her in GS you have been kind, insightful and helpful, but most of all you listened. That is a rare and treasured quality.

Each and everytime I see one of your posts it makes me smile, perhaps not because of the content of the post but because of your closing line;

"with love and a holy kiss blowing your way ".

I can feel the love in that little line. Your heart overflows my friend, and I am very, very happy that I have the privilage and joy of knowing you just the little bit that we do here in cyberspace.

God Bless you Roy, and a holy kiss back at you!

(And if people want to call you names...well blow them a kiss too! The reactions are always a blast (especially on the freeway).

I think that it is very difficult to go from thinking that we were *God`s elite* with a special corner on the market of truth, to becoming humble enough to admit that we were mistaken and start again from scratch.

I have to say that I never thought of myself in this manner. (I know you were not directing this at me) I approached the Corps as a College. They had things to teach, and I had things to learn. Much of the repetitious stuff went in one ear and out the other, (or I slept through it). But some of the history of the OT, and other basic stuff that is really hard to screw up...I learned what I could from them and did my own studying and pondering to ascertain the truth. My parents raised me to think for myself so I do. I tried not to let TWI tell me what to think. But they did heartily and happily deceive me and that makes me angry.

The point that you made that if VP had not been our "teacher" then we would not feel the need to protect him. I think that you are right. Although I am not certain why I have up until this very moment felt the need to justify what he did. I did not condone it persay but I have said "Power corrupted him" and kind of shrugged it off as a thing of the past better left forgotten and hence unexamined by myself. How deplorable of me! To those that he hurt I humbly appologize! No joke, no excuses. That "shrug" was wrong of me. Do I know that power corrupted him? No, I do not. Perhaps this is the way he was all along. I will never excuse him for those actions again. Although I will never deny what I learned from TWI I think that I will have to give myself more credit than I once did for finding the candy despite their efforts to hide it.

Rascal, thanks for bringing this subject up in this manner. You and other posters have helped open my eyes just a bit more.

Amen CHOICES CHOICES CHOICES it's all about Choices. Do we respond to what the scriptures say or do we not. One could ask this question another way, Does TWI have to be bad? Do some need it to be bad to make them feel ok about their choices?

To some people "yes" others need to be bad so that they can feel good about themselves. Some people need to compair themselves to others. I think it is because they don't feel very good about themselves. But that's my opinion.

TWI like most things was both good and bad. Some cling to the good other to the bad. I myself have tried to gleen the good and discard the bad. It is an ongoing process. I ask God to forgive me for the mistakes that I have made that might have hurt others and I try not to make those mistakes again. These things are my choice.

I try not to defend TWI but after reading the original post on this thread I realized that I have said a couple of those things or similar. Sooo I guess that I would try to make excuses not because I don't want to be wrong, but because I don't want to think that I wasted so many years. Some good came out of it I know because I grew mentally and spiritually in ways that I had not known were possible until TWI.

Maybe I'm just getting to old for all this sheeeet. I don't really care if every last thing I learned was wrong.. I made a choice all those years ago and I've made different choices since then. Some of them have been amazing - others I'm still unraveling.

I can only be responsible for my choices. I can try to make the next choice the right one. If a person in my life chooses to make wrong choices then I must choose whether or not they get to remain in my life.

Hopefully I've learned some from the past and I won't repeat the same mistakes over and over.

I second that, well said doojab!

Wow, Roy you always seem to amaze me somehow. Where do you get the time to find these things? Ahh forget it, I'm just glad that you do.

TWI I don't think, has the humility to do something like this. And that is sad. Not everything that they taught or are teaching is wrong, but so much of it was and is wrong. But the first part of healing is admitting that there is a problem. I don't think that they can honestly do that.

I don't believe Paul is what so many people have believed him to be. First off, look at his "conversion." His particular experience is totally unprecidented. He is not a humble, meek, loving, guy trying to genuinely seek God when he finds Jesus. He is out on his way to try and kill and persecute more Christians. Unprecidented. Jesus speaks to him audibly and through a vision. There is no other record that I know of in which Jesus does anything like that. A random discple we have never heard of and never here about again is the guy that comes and heals him. What seems like overnight he goes from killing Christians to preaching to them.

What is he preaching? Not exactly the words of Jesus. The life of Jesus? Nope. How could he? He never knew Jesus. In fact many people see contradictions between what Jesus supposedly said and what Paul taught. Of course, the only evidence of what we believe Jesus said were things written after the epistles, but that is another topic. I think many of the things in Paul's epistles undermine many things in the Gospels. It is a Christianity that leans toward a new legalism, not the Christianity of the Gospels.

It is almost as though Paul went from one plan of attack to another. He threw in a gas pumps and snow type story and claimed that he was the new apostle. The other guys were apostles to the Jews and he was the apostle to everyone else. It just all seems a little fishy.

Of course so does the whole thing about there being no mention of Jesus anywhere until at least 40 years after his death, at which time he is "resurrected" by who?

Alright Lindy I'll bite...but I am going to call it a "unique" event in stead of an unprecidented one. Just a semantics thing that I am more comfortable with.

Let us assume for a moment that Paul was in fact trying to pull the wool over the eyes of his enemies the Christians. His ploy was fairly well conceived in its inception. He gained immediate access to the inner circle by pretending to represent the "other side of the coin" so to speak. He took the teachings of Jesus and found a loop hole. Someone was supposed to be trying to reach the Gentile nations. In steps Paul.

He manufactures a story that the new Christians are likely to believe, he describes their Lord Jesus in exquisite detail and spins a yarn that though outwardly suspicious it does fit into their agenda. After all Peter and the boys didn't really like the Gentiles and had no intention of inviting them to the eternal life party if they could get away with it. So it was a real boon to them that this man who once hunted them now claims to have seen the Lord and been given a ministry to convert the Gentiles. They readily accepted Paul and his story, so the first part of the plan has gone off without a hitch.

So now he's in. What to do now? His plan is to try and subvert the church from within. So he changed a word here and there, just subtle differences from the words of Jesus. But permanent change takes time. He tries to make a religion based on his own ideas.

But his plan went awry although slightly different than the plan of Jesus he managed to nurture a young church into adolesence. The numbers were growing exponentially and he himself had now made it to the top of the Roman goon squad most wanted list. He gets imprisoned and instead of denying his affiliation with the Christian movement he writes letters to his followers encouraging them and teaching them. Finally Nero calls for his head as a gift to his wife. Paul still does not tell his captors that he is really undercover and they shouldn't kill him because he has a better plan.

Paul loses his head and his martyrdom encourages his fledgling church to expand their numbers. So in death Pauls master plan of destroy from within is lost. He made some changes but they were not enough. The corps message of love, brotherhood and redemption still lived on past him. So ultimately he ran out of time if his plan was to destroy from within. His plan failed, so was it worth it? <_<

Just supposin'

Last time I was in Memphis it was at Sound Out '84. Wow how time flies! It was and is one of the fond memories of TWI. Actually Arkansas is a fond memory. Had a great time there, met some wonderful people (excluding of course LCM's little sis, she and I didn't get on so well, in fact it finally came to a head while we were out LEAD...but that's another story).

I remember working at Mexico Chiquito in LR. Best cheese dip I ever tasted! Been trying for years to duplicate it, never have.

When I lived in Jonesboro it was a small clicky town. I learned to speak southern there, didn't have too much choice. They had one fast food resteraunt a Micky D's. I worked at the only Chinese place in town. It was very small. But the people were great once they got used to you.

I was WOW in Jonesboro from 82-83 and then moved to N. Little Rock and stayed for two years from 83-85. Went to the Corps from there. Nearly everyone that I knew moved out of Little Rock shortly after POP. I was told most followed Duclos somewhere. Except the Dockters they moved to Nevada.