Eyesopen

Well said Groucho, it is amazing to me to see how TWI has changed. In my mind it plays like a color to black and white before and after scenario. My memories include a huge gathering of excited loving people at an ROA in full technocolor, but now I am handed this new picture of a sparse gatering of a few highly starched people listening to the droning monolog of an miserly, selfish old crone. I missed the majority of the 90's. I was involved only on the fringe and only because my Mom was still active. So I missed Rosie, and the majority of LCM's crap. Then I did not have any contact after my mom was kicked out by my brother and his TC because she wouldn't denounce me and my other siblings. (How can a "loving" ministry do that to an old woman? How could my brother do that to his own mother? It still boggles the mind. ) So in my mind TWI made this change overnight. I am not holding my breath waiting for TWI to make a comeback. In my mind it is dead I just need to bury it.

Rascal somewhere I missed this information. Is there another thread, probably archived that explaines this or a document...something so I can get the whole story so to speak. Not that I don't believe you, but I just either forgot or didn't get this information. Thanks.

I know people (not just from TWI) that have old wounds that are still open, some that have scabbed over but are not healing but festering instead, some that don't even know that they have been wounded and then those that have healed. Bottom line is all people are different. Some need to look at the weapons or their attackers to truely begin healing. Some don't. You had a good experience in TWI. You received all that was promised on the green card. Excellent!!! Really! I would never even suggest that you forget that, throw it away or deny it. But didn't someone say on this thread that VP would be affecting Christianity for generations to come or something like that? Something about him making an impact with PFAL and some of what it taught now being accepted in the main stream? My point is that he is not beyond influencing people or hurting people. His doctrine and actions continue to hurt people everyday. The ministry he started still teaches that crap. Some people he hurt are still trying to recover (as attested to on this site everyday). The only thing he is beyond is reaping the joy of it all. Everyone that has taken the time to post on this thread has made valid points. Some I agree with and some I don't but I will not be the person to tell them that they can't speak their mind. I will not be the person to tell them how to think or even try to influence how they think. We all have the right to speak, we all have the right to our own opinions.

I personally have not seen anything in your posts that suggested otherwise. So based on that admittedly incomplete information I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you had mirrored that same behavour in any PM that you had sent. If my post sounded like It was directed at you it was unintenional. I suppose the best thing for me to say concerning my most recent post is "if the shoe fits, wear it".

Thanks Rascal, I was thinking "Grand ole Opera" and wrote Memphis I guess I should have had a V8 before I touched the keyboard. Had a blast at Sound Out though. I think the believers we stayed with that night were in Memphis. I don't remember anymore...those years were a whirlwind of meetings, events, work, way home, twig...etc. I'm certain you can relate. Act2- Yes indeed you are one lucky person to have missed little princess Carrie M. I unfortunately got way too much of her. Two years in LR then off to Emporia to go in res with the little snit. I tried, no I really did! We stayed at opposite ends of the campus from each other. I only actually saw her during SNS or sometimes at a meeting. We avoided each other as much as possible. But then we went out LEAD together. (I really think it was orchestrated) Our LEAD was one of those that didn't go so well. TWI got sued big time from about 70% of the group. The LEAD staff got reassigned, and those that survived to stay in the corps were separated from each other all assigned to different campuses some different countries. I saw a couple at corps week but LEAD was never mentioned again. Anyway that is a whole different story...but for princess Carrie and I it all hit a head the first night in the mountains. She made some stupid comment in her midwest farm girl trying to be the hip Cali chick way, a comment that was an outright lie, something about the Limb of Arkansas, and I called her on it. Right there at the campfire in front of God and everyone. She of course acted contrite and abashed, after all she was LCM's sis how could she be wrong. And I was basically told to shut up and go away. Of course after that I was a target. But now for two reasons, I had survived the LEAD experience unscathed because I did NOT take the advice of TWI, and I had openly embarassed the princess. Whatever...

Thank you Wolf for reminding me, (and probably some others) of just how much fun we had in res and on interum (Just loved the veggie crap at Emporia). No really though, I hadn't thought of it as a money maker. But it certainly does appear that it did serve that purpose. Your other observations that it was basically a training program for salesmen sounds obsurd but I cannot deny the validity of the statement. We were taught some basic research skills, lots of repetition on the "classes" but come to think of it there really was a huge emphasis on "presentation" and sales, not only of the product, ie pfal but of yourself as a representative of the organization. The idea that they SOLD us on was great, and could have worked I think had it been done correctly, but you're right...it WASN'T so.

Please, she used a figure of speech to ask a question. Must it become a personal attack? Can we not just answer the questions and discuss our differences as adults. Without all of this name calling and accusing? WW and dooj- your words are wise

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Thanks! I don't care who you are that sh#t was funny!

My warmest greetings and birthday wishes to you.

Roy From the very first post that I made her in GS you have been kind, insightful and helpful, but most of all you listened. That is a rare and treasured quality. Each and everytime I see one of your posts it makes me smile, perhaps not because of the content of the post but because of your closing line; "with love and a holy kiss blowing your way ". I can feel the love in that little line. Your heart overflows my friend, and I am very, very happy that I have the privilage and joy of knowing you just the little bit that we do here in cyberspace. God Bless you Roy, and a holy kiss back at you! (And if people want to call you names...well blow them a kiss too! The reactions are always a blast (especially on the freeway).

I have to say that I never thought of myself in this manner. (I know you were not directing this at me) I approached the Corps as a College. They had things to teach, and I had things to learn. Much of the repetitious stuff went in one ear and out the other, (or I slept through it). But some of the history of the OT, and other basic stuff that is really hard to screw up...I learned what I could from them and did my own studying and pondering to ascertain the truth. My parents raised me to think for myself so I do. I tried not to let TWI tell me what to think. But they did heartily and happily deceive me and that makes me angry. The point that you made that if VP had not been our "teacher" then we would not feel the need to protect him. I think that you are right. Although I am not certain why I have up until this very moment felt the need to justify what he did. I did not condone it persay but I have said "Power corrupted him" and kind of shrugged it off as a thing of the past better left forgotten and hence unexamined by myself. How deplorable of me! To those that he hurt I humbly appologize! No joke, no excuses. That "shrug" was wrong of me. Do I know that power corrupted him? No, I do not. Perhaps this is the way he was all along. I will never excuse him for those actions again. Although I will never deny what I learned from TWI I think that I will have to give myself more credit than I once did for finding the candy despite their efforts to hide it. Rascal, thanks for bringing this subject up in this manner. You and other posters have helped open my eyes just a bit more.

To some people "yes" others need to be bad so that they can feel good about themselves. Some people need to compair themselves to others. I think it is because they don't feel very good about themselves. But that's my opinion. TWI like most things was both good and bad. Some cling to the good other to the bad. I myself have tried to gleen the good and discard the bad. It is an ongoing process. I ask God to forgive me for the mistakes that I have made that might have hurt others and I try not to make those mistakes again. These things are my choice. I try not to defend TWI but after reading the original post on this thread I realized that I have said a couple of those things or similar. Sooo I guess that I would try to make excuses not because I don't want to be wrong, but because I don't want to think that I wasted so many years. Some good came out of it I know because I grew mentally and spiritually in ways that I had not known were possible until TWI.

I second that, well said doojab!

Wow, Roy you always seem to amaze me somehow. Where do you get the time to find these things? Ahh forget it, I'm just glad that you do. TWI I don't think, has the humility to do something like this. And that is sad. Not everything that they taught or are teaching is wrong, but so much of it was and is wrong. But the first part of healing is admitting that there is a problem. I don't think that they can honestly do that.

Alright Lindy I'll bite...but I am going to call it a "unique" event in stead of an unprecidented one. Just a semantics thing that I am more comfortable with. Let us assume for a moment that Paul was in fact trying to pull the wool over the eyes of his enemies the Christians. His ploy was fairly well conceived in its inception. He gained immediate access to the inner circle by pretending to represent the "other side of the coin" so to speak. He took the teachings of Jesus and found a loop hole. Someone was supposed to be trying to reach the Gentile nations. In steps Paul. He manufactures a story that the new Christians are likely to believe, he describes their Lord Jesus in exquisite detail and spins a yarn that though outwardly suspicious it does fit into their agenda. After all Peter and the boys didn't really like the Gentiles and had no intention of inviting them to the eternal life party if they could get away with it. So it was a real boon to them that this man who once hunted them now claims to have seen the Lord and been given a ministry to convert the Gentiles. They readily accepted Paul and his story, so the first part of the plan has gone off without a hitch. So now he's in. What to do now? His plan is to try and subvert the church from within. So he changed a word here and there, just subtle differences from the words of Jesus. But permanent change takes time. He tries to make a religion based on his own ideas. But his plan went awry although slightly different than the plan of Jesus he managed to nurture a young church into adolesence. The numbers were growing exponentially and he himself had now made it to the top of the Roman goon squad most wanted list. He gets imprisoned and instead of denying his affiliation with the Christian movement he writes letters to his followers encouraging them and teaching them. Finally Nero calls for his head as a gift to his wife. Paul still does not tell his captors that he is really undercover and they shouldn't kill him because he has a better plan. Paul loses his head and his martyrdom encourages his fledgling church to expand their numbers. So in death Pauls master plan of destroy from within is lost. He made some changes but they were not enough. The corps message of love, brotherhood and redemption still lived on past him. So ultimately he ran out of time if his plan was to destroy from within. His plan failed, so was it worth it? <_< Just supposin'

Last time I was in Memphis it was at Sound Out '84. Wow how time flies! It was and is one of the fond memories of TWI. Actually Arkansas is a fond memory. Had a great time there, met some wonderful people (excluding of course LCM's little sis, she and I didn't get on so well, in fact it finally came to a head while we were out LEAD...but that's another story). I remember working at Mexico Chiquito in LR. Best cheese dip I ever tasted! Been trying for years to duplicate it, never have. When I lived in Jonesboro it was a small clicky town. I learned to speak southern there, didn't have too much choice. They had one fast food resteraunt a Micky D's. I worked at the only Chinese place in town. It was very small. But the people were great once they got used to you.

I was WOW in Jonesboro from 82-83 and then moved to N. Little Rock and stayed for two years from 83-85. Went to the Corps from there. Nearly everyone that I knew moved out of Little Rock shortly after POP. I was told most followed Duclos somewhere. Except the Dockters they moved to Nevada.

Absolutely! Most that followed him did so because they loved God and wanted to serve Him and his people. When that became unavailable or impractical they melted away. But the corps had been sucked deeper into the web of deception. They couldn't just 'melt away'. They had to unentangle themselves. Some felt they needed to save others as they pushed towards the door, and this sometimes entangled them more. Kind of like trying to leave a large party and always getting side tracked while saying your goodbyes. Then there were those that liked it in the web. They liked the drama, the secrets and the power. But VP he didn't care for any of them/us. He just needed them. He needed the corps, the way builders, the leaves, the WOW's, the secretaries, the people. As waysider said "Who would have cleaned the toilets or strung the chairs" (or something like that )

I think ole Doc Vic would have eventually gotten all that he went after. He was after all despite his other faults a charismatic leader. But the WC certainly stream lined the operation. Things are always faster and smoother when you have people helping you that believe in you. Ask any politician, or athlete, or actor how far or how fast they could have gone without help. I also agree with Rascals interpretation that the corps that "knew" acted as a shield for the upper leadership. And the happy go lucky knot heads (play on the wooden decoy analogy) who remained blissfully ignorant for a time were the proverbial bait. The turning point for any corps person was when they really understood the doctrine that they were helping to promote, encourage or support was somehow a lie. Whatever the situation was, whether they learned of VP's motorcoach escapades, LCM's adultery or they simply realized that much of the Ways doctrine wasn't biblical...whatever it was...they had a choice to make. They needed to decide individually if they wanted to continue to perpetrate the lie. It is at that point that the person's true motive for becoming corps was illuminated. This is also the point in which one can begin to asses blame if that is your wish. Because it is here that the true good hearted believers parted ways either mentally or physically from TWI. It did not happen all at once to be sure and in some respect it is still happening. But the true question that I ask at this point is "What is the profit of assigning blame?" I am not saying that some are blameless, nor do I excuse the atrocities committed by soooo many. For myself it does not help to assign blame as I myself have skeletons that I am more than a little ashamed of, so I also am to blame for my little speck of universal chaos. I stayed much longer than I should have...I saw the writing on the wall and tried to clean it off...to no avail. Then I hung on for prides sake...how foolish was that? Should they be blamed one and all for wanting more, for whatever reason? Should they be blamed for trying to fix it? Should they be blamed... I look in the mirror of my own soul and blame myself enough thank you, give me more if it makes you feel better but my cup already runeth over.

Well spoken cman.

You are all so very kind! And I love each and everyone of you. I feel like having one big HUGE birthday group hug! Then we can all toast life together with our favorite libation! (The squashed one...that was me last night!) Thank you all for your kind wishes and the beautiful pics, poems, and song! I look forward to someday meeting you all at the Bema? If its true ...if not how about meeting in Chicago...or better yet Paris? Anyplace but New Knoxville. Really you all make this place ROCK!! I'm so glad your here and I'm here and were all here together...did that make any sense? :wacko: Ok so maybe I still got a little extra "libation" still in me. :P Rainbow- Never fear my dear...I can read anything as long as I have my contacts in right! :blink:

My dear Rainbow, a person's beliefs are carried by the heart. So when one is seen the other is as well. A person does not always speak or preach their true beliefs. Many speak/preach what they think is the "right" thing, but their heart knows the difference and eventually it will have its way. Most of us, certainly most ex corps have unfortunately experienced this "Lie" (not sure if "lie" is the right word, perhaps someone could find a more appropriate word?) You are a rare commodity in this day and time as your words very clearly reflect your heart and hence true beliefs. So my dear you really are an easy read. This is not a bad thing, in fact it is, IMHO a very trusting and loving thing, and dare I say what Christ might have called a "Christian" thing? Within the household all should be feel safe enough to be both trusting and loving. I thank you for that trust and love and I shall endeavor to protect both. God Bless you my dear sister in Christ, I do love you dearly and look forward to future communication and communion with you. Teresa P.S. Thank you so much for the birthday wishes. I had a blast last night ...had one beer too many ...but I survived the night! (Can you tell I really love all of these wonderful "emoticons"?) :P

Rainbow- I think that QT has said, in her usual verbose manner, what I might have said. I often keep things a bit too short and direct thus losing content and understanding. So thank you QT and Rainbow for taking the effort to "speak" so succinctly. I was once "run off" by the big bad "newbie bashers" that sometimes visit this site. But I'll not be run off again. Mostly thanks to you Rainbow and all of the wonderfully hearted people that are becoming more loquacious here at GS. Many of whom have responded on this thread. Thank you for sharing your heart here...all of you. :) It brings my heart great joy. Love ya, Teresa

Sorry, T&O and Oak, it was unintentional. I was not trying to be sarcastic or inflammatory...really. But I would like some elaboration because I really didn't understand. But if my query goes unanswered that is ok as well.