Eyesopen

"If your mind is saturated with truth your mouth cannot slobber evil"

It's actually a good one. Too bad he didn't adhere to it.

I would really love to hear how LCM explained this in his class...It was hard for me to swallow (no pun intended) the whole masturbation thing in CF&S. In fact I never really did, it didn't make any sense. But I really would like to hear his twisted logic on this one, it is soooo far out there. Anybody got a copy?

J.L. still takes a pretty good beating here, but he failed to dialog, he chose to pontificate.

I think if loy actually honestly dialoged, he'd have half a chance here.

I think that he would get a fair shake if he actually did appologize and admit that he was wrong. Oh sure many would get their pound of flesh, but in the end if he were truly repentant, many would forgive him as well. It would take a serious set on his part because initially he would take a he!! of a beating.

I will have to look up the biblical references to the morning star again - it has been along time. I think Jewish tradition links them to a king, perhaps Babylonian?

With regard to the two halves of fertility - my understanding of some of the ancient pagan rites would correspond with this. It is interesting to me, because Judaism does not follow the sun, but the moon. In the Jewish reckoning of time, a day starts when the sun sets. Likewise, the calendar follows the pattern of the moon, and does not follow the same cycle as our 12 month calendar. I have often wondered how many of the Jewish holidays have corresponding pagan ones.

But for now, I must be off "Grey's Anatomy" will be on soon!

This has been really interesting and fun Eyes - thank you. I will come back to it tomorrow or over the weekend. I can't promise my mind won't run amok in the interim though.

It will be interesting to see what Jewish tradition says about the morning star. I will in the meantime see if I can check out the evening star.

I know that many "Christian' holidays have pagan correlations. And other things as well. I'll make a list and get back to you on it.

I'm having a hoot of a time! I am also learning a lot. I'm on the west coast so my shows dont start for a while...I guess I'll watch a movie and run amok for a while... :wacko:

The 12 Tribes of Ishmael from the Bible were:

Nebaioth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and kedmah.

According to Josephus, the Arabian nations come from Nebaioth.

Ezekiel 27:21 says of Kedar: "Arabia and all Kedar's chiefs were traders under your rule; they traded with you in lambs, rams, and goats.

According to one article I found, they worshipped, among others (oh, you are going to LOVE this) "the morning star of heaven" [ring familiar from certain writings of the prophets - perhaps the morning star does not refer to a devil, but to the God that some of ishamael's decendent's worshipped. Religiously they were ruled by priestesses and also worshipped an evening star, as well as a sun god and a sky goddess known as Allat - who later became the God called Allah.

The Kedarites are mentioned in several other places in the bible, including a psalm Psalm 120, Isaiah 42:11, Jeremiah 2:10, and Jeremiah 49:28.

It would appear that not much is known about the remainder of the tribes. However, some hisotrians believe the decendants of Mibsam and Mishma intermarried with the Simeonites. This is based on I Chronicles 4:24ff "The sons of Simeon: Nemuel, Jamin, Jarib, Zerah, Shaul; his son Shallum, his son Misbam, his son Mishma.

OOOoooh! Now you've done it! I looked up Allat here is what I got:

Allat ~ A pre-Islamic Arabian goddess who was one of the three chief goddesses of Mecca.

Not much but I'm not done yet.

The "morning star" refered to Lucifer before he fell, and Jesus Christ after he ascended. In the Bible it represents the right hand of the Almighty. So in Ishy's time there technically was not "morning star", or being sitting on the right hand of the Almighty so Biblically speaking it could refer to anyone that was deemed strong enough, smart enough, or just good enough to fill the position.

The sun god and the sky goddess were often seen together throughout many religions. The male sun god was most commonly called Baal and the female sky goddess was called either Ashteroth or Ishtar. They of course had other names that were similar but their functions seldom changed. They always represented the two halves of fertility. The sun and the sky giving life to the earth. In some religions Ishtar became mother earth, or the supreme goddess.

Now the evening star is something that I saw not too long ago but don't remember where I saw the referenc. I will check again.

And while we are running amok amok amok - and who cares iif a thread stays perfectly on topic or strays and comes back anyway - right?

Okay, I'm off to do some research on the genealogy of Ishmael if I can find it . ..

On that topic, you mght find it interesting to recall that what Abraham died, both Isaac and Ishmael buried him. Also, Ishmael, like Isaac, was the father of 12 tribes.

Oh yeah, what Ishmael was doing to Isaac - My Tanakh says Sarah saw them playing, King James says Ishmael was mocking Isaac and one of the other translations says he made sport of him. The Hewbrew word is t'sahak. One of it's meanings is "laugh" and can be a play on Isaac's name. However, another meaning is "fondle".

It is used again in Gen 26:8 of Isaac with Rebekah where it says, "Behold, Isaac was "sporting" with Rebekah his wife" - that word sport is also t'sahak.

Perhaps we will never know for certain. Was Sarah really so jealous and petty as to toss them out into the wilderness over childish teasing? Or was Ishmael doing something else? I don't really know. The author of "Harlot by the Side of the Road" seems to argue pretty well that it was molestation. Even that is what took place, it is sad to see thousands of generations later, there is still bad blood because of it.

We kind of stay near the topic...kind of...amok....darn thing just keeps jumping....amok...everywhere!

As I recall did not God also bless Ishmael and give him fertile land next door to Isaac? I don't remember anywhere immediately after his birth or even after Sarah kicked them out that God treated Ishmael much different than Isaac. The only major difference was that God made Isaac's line the chosen line.

Whatever problem that Ishmael had with the children of Isaac it had to do with Sarah. It would be horribly petty to keep a grudge that long even if Ishy did grab Isaac's little worm...

I can't remember how old was Ishy when he and mom move out?

Amok Amok - roflmao.

I don't know that God excised anything from our memories. I think it is more likely that we just lost it along the way - forgot it or had it beaten out of us by over zealot relgious leaders who were more hungry for power than godliness. And yet, despite that, remnants of the godess has remained in some form or fashion.

And while we are running amok amok amok - and who cares iif a thread stays perfectly on topic or strays and comes back anyway - right?

Here's some more amok running for you . .

In the Tanakh I am reading is says thusly ( ;) ) regarding Adam, Eve and the serpent:

"The two of them were naked, the man and his wife, yet they felt no shame. Now the serpent was the shrewdset of wall the wild beasts . . ."

That word naked, in Hebrew is 'arummim' and is a play on the word 'arum' which is translated shrewd. So, one could perhaps read that Adam and Eve were shrewd, but the serpent was more shrewd? They were shrewd and knew no shame, but AFTER they ate, they knew shame. There is a Jewish tradition that says God intended for them to eat - that it was a choice. They could remain shrewd and unashamed (and in a very real sense ignorant, dependant, and stuck in terms of growth) or they could eat and evolve.

Oh I am so happy you said that!! When I was amoking before I deleted a part that posed the view that perhaps the part that is "in His image" is the mental capacities or ability to reason out things. We use only a small portion of our brain, perhaps in our new bodies we are to learn how to use more of it. Did I amok too far out of the box and fall on the floor? :unsure:

I have read before and am believing that 'shrewed' is a more accurate translation of the word. Because it was that they didn't know shame. The word 'naked' also indicates an openness. Without guile if you will, they had no deceipt therefore no reason to hide or be ashamed. They were innocent. Like the two year old running around the house butt a$$ naked. They are innocent.

I have heard the point of view that God intended them to eat as well. But in his opinion they ate too early and in the manner that they did it they committed a sin against Gods law. So before they could eat of the tree of life he had to kick them out or they would live forever, as gods, knowing good and evil and also being in sin, separated forever from God. But by introducing death into the world and allowing mankind to live and then die he could orchastrate salvation for all. To have a man listen to him and keep all of his commandments regardless of the circumstances or outcome was a huge sacrifice. Adam had only a small list of laws, Jesus had a slew of them. This makes me think that perhaps my idea about the blood of Jesus needing to be impure was correct. It made him more of a complete savior. Adam had Eve to help him screw up. Jesus had no-one to help him be perfect, (except God), but Jesus was not made to be responsible for a woman in the manner that Adam was, so perhaps his mixed blood did that part for him. The laws tried to cover every eventuality including the other nations. The blood covered the other nations as well. He truly did die for ALL. Literally as well as figuratively.

Hmmm...amok...amok...

Zipporah

Very little attention has been paid to Zipporah. We know she was Moses wife, but we know little about who she was as an individual. One of the few verses that mentions her is below.

Exodus 4:24ff "At a night encampent on the way, the Lord encountered him [Moses[ and sought to kill him. So Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin, and touched his legs with it, saying, "You are truly a bridgeroom of blood to me!" and when He let him alone, she added, "A bridegroom of bllod because of teh circumcision."

It is a very difficult verse, both the sages of old and the more conteporary scholars have a difficult time knowing what to do with this verse. God trying to kill Moses!?! I know, TWI would have attributed that to the Devil, via idiom of permission. Judaism does not believe in the devil. Even if there were a devil, Judaism would never grant him the power to supercede God's will.

The traditional explanation is that God sought to kill Moses because he failed to keep the covenant by circumcising his son. Zipporah is said to be a Midianite (there is a later reference regarding Moses having a wife who is a Cudange - whether this second reference is to Zipporah or another wife is unclear). Circumcision was a ritual that was not specific only to the Jewish people. Midianites also circumcised their children, as did Egyptians and some of the people of Canaan - but not at such a young age. There is an old oral tradition that says Moses and his father-in-law struck a deal regarding how the children would be raised and when they would be circumcised.

Another theory links these verses to the Goddess Isis. Isis was the wife and sister of Osiris, who was killed by his jealous brother, Seth, who tricked him into lying down inside a wooden chest then sealed the chest and placed it in the Nile. Seth later dismembers Osiris' body and scatters the pieces. Isis manages to track down all of the remains of Osiris, but one, his penis.

One argument in the Midrash suggests there is a link between circumcision and the practice of sacrificing children that once existed. As the Israelites put the blood of a lamb on their doorposts on the evening of Passover, when the first born of the Egyptians were killed, so the ritual of circumcision is something of a blood offering to God.

But anyway you look at it, it was Zipporah who saved Moses' life that night. In fact, throughout his life, time and time again he was spared by women. First, his sister, then Pharoh's daughter, and here Zipporah.

Even Bullinger holds to the idea that God was going to kill Moses for not circumcising his son. In the next couple of verses Zipporah calls Moses a 'bloody husband' because of the circumcision of his son. Suggesting the blood sacrifice to God.

I would like to hear more on this oral tradition between Moses and his father in law before I make too many more comments.

It is clear that Zipporah saved his butt that day, but it seems almost petty of God to track Moses down like that over a circumcision even if it was representing a blood sacrifice and it is petty of Moses to decline to perform the rite. He leaves it to his wife who is not of Israel and God accepts the sacrifice even though Moses did not give it. Moses gets credit for a sacrifice he did not perform and if he had it would have been under duress not of a pure and loving heart. So what's up with all of that? I don't know...I'm gonna think on it a bit.

Amok...amok...amok....

I'm gonna catch that little "amok" if it takes a week!

It is NOT a King James "ism", though I do think that is what TWI taught. The plural usages are in the various Torah translations as well. The Kabbalah says of these verse, that God was conversing with the angels/spirit beings. This is a somewhat simplified explanation, but it could take all day to write it all out. :)

I am so happy to know this...I just knew it wasn't an "ism" Could God have been talking to other gods. This happened before the Serpent and the woman incident in the Garden, so Satan/Lucifer was not the "god of this world" yet soooo...

Just a thought. Amok...amok...amok...

Some would argue Christianity has its Goddess as well, either in the form of Mary for the Catholics, or Holy Spirit for some of the other denominations. I think, when you get right down to it, man craves that female figure in a God, to balance the male. Me, I read my bible and I have no doubt there are other spiritual beings besides God.

Ok now my mind is going again outside of the box...remember how in TWI we were taught that God is called a "He" because it was simply easier for the people to equate it? Well...maybe that is actually more correct than even VP claimed it to be. God is spirit. He has no actual form, but he formed/made/created, pick your favorite term, male and female of nearly every species including plant. God is neither male nor female and yet he knew to make both for reproduction. Perhaps he is both...

Maybe that's why the goddess/god diety shows up so much throughout history. It seems to be intertwined in every culture in one form or another. Perhaps in God's attempt to simplify he unwittingly excised the memory of part of his essence from the minds of his people.

Maybe my mind is just running amok again...amok...amok..

Thanks, Eyes, that does explain a lot. The Jewish translation indicates Sarah caught Ishmael molesting Isaac, but who knows what the heck really happened.

Perhaps as I go through this book, what we will really discover is that the blood of Ishmael and the blood of Isaac was very mingled. Personally, I think we are all related and find the who fight between the two religious sides to be very very sad.

I would love to tear that word "molesting" apart just to see if and where it was used in any writing of the time. Just for fun. It was probably as simple as two boys beating on each other. Although everything that I have read both in and out of the Bible indicates to me that Ishmael felt that he was not being treated fairly (real or perceived). So perhaps he was acting out as jealous children do. I know that the records show that throughout his life he and his kin blamed Isaac and his kin for everything. And I do remember seeing on a documentary type show once about how it was sport between the two tribes to steal each others women and get them with child before returning them. Thus making more "bastards". I am fairly certain that if this were so then Ishmael would have been the one to start it.

My goodness Abi, have we been busy?

Eyes, do you know if the Moslem's believe in "original sin" and a messiah? And if they do believe in a messiah, is it a spiritual one or a worldly king? Also, I am curious as to their take on Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac and the reason why Sarah was so adamant that Hagar and Ishmael leave. :) Not that I have any questions or anything - HA

I certainly cannot speak for all Moslem's as just as in any other religion there are diverging beliefs. The man that I spoke to considered himself to be a "spiritual" man he called himself Mohamad the Religious. He meant "spiritual" Those that came with him, including a Saudi prince named Hamid all looked to Mohamad for religious guildance. So I was led to believe that he was in effect their spiritual leader here in America.

Anyway he belived that Jesus was one of the great prophets, like Moses. I do not know if all Moslem's believe the rest of this but I am fairly certain that the Saudi's believe it. They still wait for the messiah because their messiah must come from the blood of Abraham and Hagar, not Sarah. The whole thing started when Sarah would not give Ishmael equal benefits as a son of Abraham. Ishmael was after all the bastard son of a servant, and Isaac the legitimate son of the wife.

To this day the battle rages between the nations because of this slight by Sarah towards Ishmael. When Israel claimed to have the messiah and sighted his earthy bloodline as proof the sons of Ishmael of course would not accept it. They felt that the children of Sarah continued to mock them and call them Bastard children. As long as Jesus is hailed as the messiah there can be no true peace between the nations.

We spoke of the original sin but I cannot remember off of the top of my head what their take on it was. If I remember I'll get back to you.

My dear Roy it is always a pleasure to talk to you and an even greater pleasure to actually assit you in something.

God Bless you my lovely friend

And a bunch of "Eyes" kisses blowing your way, not sure if they are holy or anything but they can be soggy, does that count?

IF Donna is a lesbian... for ME that "kind of" makes what LCM did kinda not so bad. still wrong, but not AS bad. Still wrong, but it sorta gives me a different level of understanding.

Now the whole part about him taking advantage of women and lying, still horrible wrong and evil, but the IF his wife was lesbian, that kinda makes me see why he would be into having sex with other people.

It is interesting that you see it from this point of view. I see it as, 'If Donna is a lesbian that would explain why she didn't really get all that upset when she knew for a very long time that he was stepping out on her.'

Now if Craig were a homo that would explain his intense hatered of women and his insane dark age style homo purge. His own religious beliefs fighting with his "urges" and inclinations.

just a thought...

I can't believe how small my notes were either. I need a gereatric size print now adays.

I hear you there! Can you believe that I wrote out, in tiny print mind you in perfect lines with margins of its own the entire "literal according to usage" of I Thessalonians? Not to be outdone by myself I typed up in small type the "Variations of the sense of the word Spirit in the NT" so I could cut and paste it into my LEAD Bible. (I just wrote the entire thing in my other Bible.)

I swear it is a good thing that water does not really screw up onion skin paper. My Bible would look like a giant square bruise! I'm pretty certain I went way beyond the required 64.62%. Now arent I godly?

God first

Zoar was outside the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah from what I can see some how but it leaves questions

Hi Roy sweetie!

If I remember correctly the only reason that Zoar was saved was because Lot was old and out of shape and because he had waited too long to leave Sodom. So much so that the Angels had to transport him and his family outside of the city without any of their belongings. He was told that he had to be in the mountains by dawn and it was already well past midnight. So Lot begged the Angel to allow him and his family to go to the "small city" Zoar (Zoar means little) that was not far away and stay there until it was all over. Well God told the Angel that he would spare Zoar for Lot's sake.

So it was by no "good deed" or anything on the part of the populace of Zoar that they were spared the same fate as their four sister cities.

Love ya

I find the Shechina studies very fascinating. The Chassidics, who are the only ones who really publicly and openly teach anything in depth about it (as part of Kabbalah - sp), do not view it as godess worship or polytheism. They simply view the Shechina as a female aspect of a many faceted God. Some of the Jewish groups outside of the Chassidics view this as something that borders on, if not crosses the line into goddess worship. Yet, despite this, they also sing a welcoming song to her every Friday night in the temple, often without even being fully aware of what they are doing or what the song means - although I think this too is begninning to change, thanks to the internet. :)

That being said, it is clear from the O.T. that the Jewish people did believe in many Gods and Goddesses, hence they repeatedly got in trouble for worshipping them, so it is not surprising to see those teachings still prevelant within Judaism in some form or fashion. Also, it is entirely likely that a number of the rituals, traditions, and O.T. stories came from cultures that worshipped other gods, cultures that the people of the O.T. assimilated into throughout the ages. This can perhaps be seen in Genesis where God says "let US make man in OUR image" and "lest man become like US".

I'm with you this is some interesting stuff. I have been talking to a Wicca follower from work for a while now. She explains her goddess in much the same way you just explained Shechina. The Wicca have both a male and a female aspect of their god/goddess. Both are venerated with roughly the same respect. Some other religions have only the goddess. Yet others only the male or god side of the pair.

I find it most interesting that as you say/quote God said, "Let US make man in OUR image" I personally question if that is really a King James "ism" as we were taught as it is not the only time that God refers to other gods. He never disputes that there are more and he does not ever qualify that the Devil is the only other one. God says on more than one occassion to Israel not to worship any other gods before Him. "Gods" plural. Our God just happens to be the big dog on the block. This is His world and everyone of the others are here at His indulgance.

It is certain that with all of the interaction through trading, marrying and just plain socializing a great deal of ideas got swapped between Israel and everyone else.

I must say I like the way that you think Abi, you don't keep you mind or your beliefs in a gilded doctrinal cage. It's good to think outside the box! I cruzed around that site for a while...they are pretty insightful. It is intersting that for very strict Jews they seem to be pretty progressive, like the way that they view women.

There are Rabbi's, wise men (sometimes referred to as sages) and women who are looked up to for their scholarly knowledge, good deeds, etc. How much emphasis is placed upon them, how much would be taught about them would, probably depend on what specific subject you are researching. We do not do weekly teachings in the same way TWI or many churches do. Rather, we work our way through the O.T. over and over again, one week at a time. It is a cycle, so that every year it starts over again. This Friday, we will read the same verses that were read a year ago this Friday.

This is a really refreshing concept in some ways. But it also seems a bit restrictive. Are the Jewish people encouraged to read and study material outside of their Talmud?

Teaching, studying, etc., is a separate thing from the Sabbath services. You can join study groups, you can study on your own, you can study on-line. The temples often offer various classes that you are free to take or not as you choose. It is truly a no pressure atmosphere, with lots of room for debate and discussion.

Do they let anyone take their classes or is it a Jewish only thing? I might have to look some up if they will let me.

I would be very interested in learning more about the Koran. I had a number of Moslem friends growing up, but back then we were more interested in the cute boys and latest fashion trends. They have all since grown up, of course, and most of them have gone back to their birth countries.

I wish that they translated the Koran into English but they do not. As I recall however we would open up the Bible and he would open up his Koran to the same acount of history and we would compair what each said concerning an event or group of people or any number of other things. The Koran diverges sharply from biblical accounts after the OT. It also documents historical events that occured in a region or to a people that did not include the Israelites. Its kind of like getting a history book that related only the events that occured to General Grants army and then another book that only related the events that occured to General Lee. They would diverge or substantiate each other on some accounts but others would have no corresponding event.

I am not 100% certain, but I think "Inner Bible" is sort of a figure of speech specific to that article. I think it is simply a reference to the women in the Bible who have gotten so little attention over many generations of a dominated society. It is a way to remind both men and women, that women are equally important.

I really love the way they addressed the issue. Well done.

The primary Jewish religious book is basically the same as the Christian OT Bible. It is arranged in a somewhat different order, and the one I am reading out of has some slightly different translations, numbering for verses, etc., but essentially it is the same. The Torah is the first five books of the O.T. The Talmud is the enitre O.T. Then there are the Midrash, which are hundreds and hundres of years of Rabinical arguments about what it all means and 'oral traditions' that never made it into the Talmud. Some of those oral traditions (which can now be found in written format) are not referred to in the Bible at all, others expound upon biblical stories.

Oh wow! You have no idea how many misunderstandings you have just cleared up! I have asked over and over again about the distinctions between those two and never gotten a straight answer, Thank you!

I love that the Talmud expands on what is written in the Bible. It fills in some more pieces of the puzzle. I find that this is similar with the Koran. I spent a good portion of my first year out WOW learning different point of view of OT history from a Saudi Arabian in Jonesboro Arkansas. It is wierd how God takes the most unlikely of situations and makes things work. Anyway the Saudi's are desendants of Abraham and Hagar. So of course they have "the other side of the story". It was fascinating stuff. At the end of the year Mohamid and I came to the conclusion that there is only one almighty God, call him any name you like but there is still only one. Despite our different backgrounds we realized that we worshipped the same God. It was very enlightening for me and him I think.

I am finding a similarity here to my experience in Arkansas. Of course I know that Christianity is an offshoot of Judeism (sp?) so they start out worshipping the same God. But Judeism gives me "the rest of the story". It stands to reason that the Jewish people would have kept more of the history than the Christians as Christians didn't consider it "their" history.

At any rate Thank you again for filling in the blanks on Miriam. So now I have a few more questions. What is the "Loshan-Hora?" I read it in the first link and I think I get the gist but I want to be certain. Tell me more about this "Inner Bible" How does it relate to women in the "church" today? Is this "Inner Bible" concept something that has been around for a while? In other words is it something that Jesus would have taught or been taught?

I am fairly certain that the Jewish religion does not adhere to "Saints" the way that Catholics do, but are there some men and women throughout history that the religion recognizes as worthy of special rememberance and respect, outside of the obvious biblical characters I mean. (Joan of Arc for example, I am certain that you noticed my signature line. She is a woman that I greatly respect for her belief in God. Her faith was incredibly strong. But I do not "elevate" her to sainthood and worship or pray to her. Sainthood is God's call. I am certain she was a child of His. But I can respect her and aspire to develope some of her more godly qualities. Kinda understand what I'm asking?)

Now the second link you gave me...wow! I can't remember reading anything so comprehensive and yet so beautiful at the same time. The concept of this Shechina is akin to the concept of the goddess in many ancient religions. (At least it seems so from what I read) I must admit that I was surprised to read that women are not thought of with the same "second class citizen" attitude that is so prevalent in many other religions. A very radical thought is beginning to take shape in my mind. Perhaps what Christianity needs to rescue it from the puritanical dark ages is a healthy slap in the face with an honest look at their history. Hmmm, just a thought.

Abi, Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. You have no idea how much you are helping me by filling in some blanks. I just love seeing things fit together and knowing the history of a thing, or a geneology is necessary to get a complete picture.

Thanks again! :)

He does not mentiona Miriam. Although he mentions some of the more well-known women of the bible, his forcus was more on the lesser known women.

However, Miriam has been incorporated into the Seder Supper for Passover. We have a cup called Miriam's cup, in memory of her role in saving Moses' life. Did you have a particular question regarding her?

I have always held a certain interest in the women of the bible, mostly Esther and Ruth as they are "big" players but I was also interested in Miriam because she was such a brave woman, a woman of strong conviction. But so little is actually told about her. Such as why did Miriam never marry? It was a patriarchal (sp) society and reproduction was a very big deal in those days. Miriam was probably considered a good catch being the sis of Moses. So why did she remain single? Did I miss something in the Bible?

I am guessing so correct me if I am wrong, and forgive me if unintentionally offend but you are Jewish are you not? Does not the Jewish religion have a book similar to the Bible? The Torah (sp) or Talmud? I know that the stories of the OT Bible are among other things of a history of Israel how much of the Jewish book correlates, or expounds the Bible? Does your book tell us more about Miriam or others?

I am sorry for bringing this up in a public forum. I have tried to ask some of these questions before and have been met with silence. I am not being sarcastic but I know I sound pretty stupid. You would think that I could remember the name of the book.

Anyway I am looking for an honest discussion here. Actually I am hoping to learn something.

Thanks for responding.

I don't think I have any open sores left. I may have some scars. Heck, I'll even show them and swap stories..

"And I got THIS one tangling with a certain saber-toothed region coordinator.."

Your fur covers them so well.

VPW to some has become their god. Is he really to worhipped, praised and prayed to?

I agree with the majority here, there was no open 'worship' so much as verneration. But on many occasions I personally heard people say "What would Doctor do in this situation?" in stead of "What would Jesus or Christ do in this situation?" They were never corrected by the closest MOG in the area.

Perhaps this was done out of respect. After all he was a living example of how to walk and one who could be imitated...? (Ok nobody barf!! )

After I left I heard of at least one childrens fellowship where the children were being taught to pray in the name of Cr@ig M@rtind@le in stead of Jesus Christ. And once I actually saw a photo of a bunch of children actually bowing to LCM! It made me sick!

I wasn't trying to imply VPW was schizophrenic, it was meant as a figure of speech.

Oh Abi sweetie I wasn't implying anything at all like that, I was just thinking out loud. I was neither agreeing nor disagreeing, just wondering if a schizo could or would be able to turn things off and on like that. I really don't know all of the schizos that I have had contact with had other issues like paranoia or worse that changes their reactions. I've never met one that had just the one problem. Just trying to hash it out...not that puting a lable to it would make it any better for me. Your comment just got me to thinking thats all.

I love ya darlin' forgive me for not making myself more clear. I thought that I had covered my ignorance when I said I wasn't a psychiatrist or psychotherapist (wow I think I spelled it right that time). But obviously I did not. I'll do better next time.

Abi, I was wondering, in that book you are reading or have read, did the author make any mention of Miriam the sister of Moses? I have at the moment a "general" curiosity.

Thanks,

love ya

Interesting thoughts, Eyes! I was going to add some more to this tonight, but got caught up in chat. I will have to see what tomorrow brings. :)

****Posted by ABIGAIL, who forgot Sushi had been on his computer************

Thanks!

I would love to hear your thoughts when you have time. It is an interesting issue. I had quite forgotten that Ruth wasn't a member of the right house.

love ya