Eyesopen

My goodness Abi, have we been busy? I certainly cannot speak for all Moslem's as just as in any other religion there are diverging beliefs. The man that I spoke to considered himself to be a "spiritual" man he called himself Mohamad the Religious. He meant "spiritual" Those that came with him, including a Saudi prince named Hamid all looked to Mohamad for religious guildance. So I was led to believe that he was in effect their spiritual leader here in America. Anyway he belived that Jesus was one of the great prophets, like Moses. I do not know if all Moslem's believe the rest of this but I am fairly certain that the Saudi's believe it. They still wait for the messiah because their messiah must come from the blood of Abraham and Hagar, not Sarah. The whole thing started when Sarah would not give Ishmael equal benefits as a son of Abraham. Ishmael was after all the bastard son of a servant, and Isaac the legitimate son of the wife. To this day the battle rages between the nations because of this slight by Sarah towards Ishmael. When Israel claimed to have the messiah and sighted his earthy bloodline as proof the sons of Ishmael of course would not accept it. They felt that the children of Sarah continued to mock them and call them Bastard children. As long as Jesus is hailed as the messiah there can be no true peace between the nations. We spoke of the original sin but I cannot remember off of the top of my head what their take on it was. If I remember I'll get back to you.

My dear Roy it is always a pleasure to talk to you and an even greater pleasure to actually assit you in something. God Bless you my lovely friend And a bunch of "Eyes" kisses blowing your way, not sure if they are holy or anything but they can be soggy, does that count?

It is interesting that you see it from this point of view. I see it as, 'If Donna is a lesbian that would explain why she didn't really get all that upset when she knew for a very long time that he was stepping out on her.' Now if Craig were a homo that would explain his intense hatered of women and his insane dark age style homo purge. His own religious beliefs fighting with his "urges" and inclinations. just a thought...

I hear you there! Can you believe that I wrote out, in tiny print mind you in perfect lines with margins of its own the entire "literal according to usage" of I Thessalonians? Not to be outdone by myself I typed up in small type the "Variations of the sense of the word Spirit in the NT" so I could cut and paste it into my LEAD Bible. (I just wrote the entire thing in my other Bible.) I swear it is a good thing that water does not really screw up onion skin paper. My Bible would look like a giant square bruise! I'm pretty certain I went way beyond the required 64.62%. Now arent I godly?

Hi Roy sweetie! If I remember correctly the only reason that Zoar was saved was because Lot was old and out of shape and because he had waited too long to leave Sodom. So much so that the Angels had to transport him and his family outside of the city without any of their belongings. He was told that he had to be in the mountains by dawn and it was already well past midnight. So Lot begged the Angel to allow him and his family to go to the "small city" Zoar (Zoar means little) that was not far away and stay there until it was all over. Well God told the Angel that he would spare Zoar for Lot's sake. So it was by no "good deed" or anything on the part of the populace of Zoar that they were spared the same fate as their four sister cities. Love ya

I'm with you this is some interesting stuff. I have been talking to a Wicca follower from work for a while now. She explains her goddess in much the same way you just explained Shechina. The Wicca have both a male and a female aspect of their god/goddess. Both are venerated with roughly the same respect. Some other religions have only the goddess. Yet others only the male or god side of the pair. I find it most interesting that as you say/quote God said, "Let US make man in OUR image" I personally question if that is really a King James "ism" as we were taught as it is not the only time that God refers to other gods. He never disputes that there are more and he does not ever qualify that the Devil is the only other one. God says on more than one occassion to Israel not to worship any other gods before Him. "Gods" plural. Our God just happens to be the big dog on the block. This is His world and everyone of the others are here at His indulgance. It is certain that with all of the interaction through trading, marrying and just plain socializing a great deal of ideas got swapped between Israel and everyone else. I must say I like the way that you think Abi, you don't keep you mind or your beliefs in a gilded doctrinal cage. It's good to think outside the box! I cruzed around that site for a while...they are pretty insightful. It is intersting that for very strict Jews they seem to be pretty progressive, like the way that they view women.

This is a really refreshing concept in some ways. But it also seems a bit restrictive. Are the Jewish people encouraged to read and study material outside of their Talmud? Do they let anyone take their classes or is it a Jewish only thing? I might have to look some up if they will let me.

I wish that they translated the Koran into English but they do not. As I recall however we would open up the Bible and he would open up his Koran to the same acount of history and we would compair what each said concerning an event or group of people or any number of other things. The Koran diverges sharply from biblical accounts after the OT. It also documents historical events that occured in a region or to a people that did not include the Israelites. Its kind of like getting a history book that related only the events that occured to General Grants army and then another book that only related the events that occured to General Lee. They would diverge or substantiate each other on some accounts but others would have no corresponding event. I really love the way they addressed the issue. Well done.

Oh wow! You have no idea how many misunderstandings you have just cleared up! I have asked over and over again about the distinctions between those two and never gotten a straight answer, Thank you! I love that the Talmud expands on what is written in the Bible. It fills in some more pieces of the puzzle. I find that this is similar with the Koran. I spent a good portion of my first year out WOW learning different point of view of OT history from a Saudi Arabian in Jonesboro Arkansas. It is wierd how God takes the most unlikely of situations and makes things work. Anyway the Saudi's are desendants of Abraham and Hagar. So of course they have "the other side of the story". It was fascinating stuff. At the end of the year Mohamid and I came to the conclusion that there is only one almighty God, call him any name you like but there is still only one. Despite our different backgrounds we realized that we worshipped the same God. It was very enlightening for me and him I think. I am finding a similarity here to my experience in Arkansas. Of course I know that Christianity is an offshoot of Judeism (sp?) so they start out worshipping the same God. But Judeism gives me "the rest of the story". It stands to reason that the Jewish people would have kept more of the history than the Christians as Christians didn't consider it "their" history. At any rate Thank you again for filling in the blanks on Miriam. So now I have a few more questions. What is the "Loshan-Hora?" I read it in the first link and I think I get the gist but I want to be certain. Tell me more about this "Inner Bible" How does it relate to women in the "church" today? Is this "Inner Bible" concept something that has been around for a while? In other words is it something that Jesus would have taught or been taught? I am fairly certain that the Jewish religion does not adhere to "Saints" the way that Catholics do, but are there some men and women throughout history that the religion recognizes as worthy of special rememberance and respect, outside of the obvious biblical characters I mean. (Joan of Arc for example, I am certain that you noticed my signature line. She is a woman that I greatly respect for her belief in God. Her faith was incredibly strong. But I do not "elevate" her to sainthood and worship or pray to her. Sainthood is God's call. I am certain she was a child of His. But I can respect her and aspire to develope some of her more godly qualities. Kinda understand what I'm asking?) Now the second link you gave me...wow! I can't remember reading anything so comprehensive and yet so beautiful at the same time. The concept of this Shechina is akin to the concept of the goddess in many ancient religions. (At least it seems so from what I read) I must admit that I was surprised to read that women are not thought of with the same "second class citizen" attitude that is so prevalent in many other religions. A very radical thought is beginning to take shape in my mind. Perhaps what Christianity needs to rescue it from the puritanical dark ages is a healthy slap in the face with an honest look at their history. Hmmm, just a thought. Abi, Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. You have no idea how much you are helping me by filling in some blanks. I just love seeing things fit together and knowing the history of a thing, or a geneology is necessary to get a complete picture. Thanks again! :)

I have always held a certain interest in the women of the bible, mostly Esther and Ruth as they are "big" players but I was also interested in Miriam because she was such a brave woman, a woman of strong conviction. But so little is actually told about her. Such as why did Miriam never marry? It was a patriarchal (sp) society and reproduction was a very big deal in those days. Miriam was probably considered a good catch being the sis of Moses. So why did she remain single? Did I miss something in the Bible? I am guessing so correct me if I am wrong, and forgive me if unintentionally offend but you are Jewish are you not? Does not the Jewish religion have a book similar to the Bible? The Torah (sp) or Talmud? I know that the stories of the OT Bible are among other things of a history of Israel how much of the Jewish book correlates, or expounds the Bible? Does your book tell us more about Miriam or others? I am sorry for bringing this up in a public forum. I have tried to ask some of these questions before and have been met with silence. I am not being sarcastic but I know I sound pretty stupid. You would think that I could remember the name of the book. Anyway I am looking for an honest discussion here. Actually I am hoping to learn something. Thanks for responding.

Your fur covers them so well.

I agree with the majority here, there was no open 'worship' so much as verneration. But on many occasions I personally heard people say "What would Doctor do in this situation?" in stead of "What would Jesus or Christ do in this situation?" They were never corrected by the closest MOG in the area. Perhaps this was done out of respect. After all he was a living example of how to walk and one who could be imitated...? (Ok nobody barf!! ) After I left I heard of at least one childrens fellowship where the children were being taught to pray in the name of Cr@ig M@rtind@le in stead of Jesus Christ. And once I actually saw a photo of a bunch of children actually bowing to LCM! It made me sick!

Oh Abi sweetie I wasn't implying anything at all like that, I was just thinking out loud. I was neither agreeing nor disagreeing, just wondering if a schizo could or would be able to turn things off and on like that. I really don't know all of the schizos that I have had contact with had other issues like paranoia or worse that changes their reactions. I've never met one that had just the one problem. Just trying to hash it out...not that puting a lable to it would make it any better for me. Your comment just got me to thinking thats all. I love ya darlin' forgive me for not making myself more clear. I thought that I had covered my ignorance when I said I wasn't a psychiatrist or psychotherapist (wow I think I spelled it right that time). But obviously I did not. I'll do better next time.

Abi, I was wondering, in that book you are reading or have read, did the author make any mention of Miriam the sister of Moses? I have at the moment a "general" curiosity. Thanks, love ya Thanks! I would love to hear your thoughts when you have time. It is an interesting issue. I had quite forgotten that Ruth wasn't a member of the right house. love ya

Someone posted that they had known VP and they related a story about him. Something about them sitting and have a normal conversation, talking, laughing what have you...then some corps person walks past and VP gets up and screams in their face dressing them down so to speak. When the corps person leaves VP sits back down and says something to the effect of "I've got to teach these kids the right way" or something like that. Then returned to a normal conversation. The person that related this story got the impression that it was all just an act. VP's "spiritual" walk in Christ, his love for the believers...all of it just an act. (Sorry for my fragmented memory here...just cant remember which thread it was on, hope I got the gist right) I didn't know him well enough to make such a determination. Neither am I a phychiatrist or phycotherapist (sp?) But could a schizo do this? Or is this a sign of schizo? It almost, and I do mean almost sounds like multiple personality disorder, but...I've never met one of those that could switch so smoothly, take that back, I did HEAR one once but the two personalities sounded different. So I am reluctant to attribute that to VP. He displayed two personalities that were such polar opposites...? Mind you I am NOT trying to make excuses for his behavior...just trying to figure out WTF. It just keeps running in my head, on one side he is the loving, caring man that loved the household, and on the other side is the motocoach. Then there is Mrs. W saying "He was a mean mean man" Are there any psych majors in the house? Isn't there a disorder that has something to do with sadistic behavior? OR...Was he just a really good Used car salesman? Things that make you go...Hmmmm? Just thinking. love ya'll p.s. Sorry Rocky, why is it that I am always asking questions that would potentially derail your thead? Hmmm? I love you!!

This is some really interesting and helpful information. Thanks for taking the time to post it all.

Hahahahahahahaha That was sweet WD!

You actually sat in the first row? Wow! I bow before your superior tolerance! I think he should come back as a sexy svelt guy that gets imprisoned for life without on a charge he didn't commit and his roommate "Bubba" REALLY likes him.

I'm certain that there are several good reasons why God did this, or why it was "allowed" to happen (depending on you school of thought) and consequently there is probably a "lesson" in the mix. My first thought inclination is that this mixed blood line makes that half of Jesus that was human more human. I mean if his bloodline had been pure as the driven snow all the way back to Abraham then perhaps the fact that although he was tempted in all things like as we are and yet did not sin, might not have had as much significance. His human half was flawed on a blood level and yet he still did not sin. It's kind of akin to an American heinze 57 mutt gutter kid being elected President. No body thought he should be there, no one thought he was good enough, but yet there he was...and he sinned not. Another thought, by having the blood of so many strangers in his veins doesn't that kind of make him a personal real live representative of all those nations? Perhaps redeming them? An Ammonite and a Moabite is forever exluded from Isreal but not the family of God? A subtle message perhaps? Just thinking. love ya

Your right! I knew something wasn't quite right about that part. But I was hoping that I would see it again. If nothing else the court case will be interesting. I mean how do you prove something like that? It's not like you can take 100 kids, inject them and see what happens. Somehow I don't think a test done with rats will sway the Judge. Thanks for the correction Abi. love ya sis

Ooooo you are soooo bad! Bad little squirrel! Here's a nut...get out of the kitchen and let me think a minute. This requires some intense thought, after all I wouldn't want to wish him on any other species, even slugs deserve better than that.

Ya'll have now brought up a current issue and I am going to risk derailing this thread yet again to ask if anyone else has seen this news report. I think it was last monday I was watching an early morning news show, around 0530 am. There was a short blurb (that I have not heard again) about a new class action law suit that is to hit the courts sometime in June. Some parents and scientists have found a correlation between your basic childhood innoculations and Downs syndome and/or Add (did I get that right?) Attention Deficite Disorder. Apparently some parents claim that they took their baby who was a "perfectly normal intelligent child" to get innoculated and walked out with a downs baby. After that came out other parents have come forward with similar stories. So now it's all going to court. You're comments concerning medication caused me to remember this little news article. Anyone else hear it? BTW John I agree with most of what you said about Social Workers. I truly understand what they must do and how they must do it. So I can empathize (been there done that won't do it again) with their attitudes at times. But you are right in saying that some are given more power (authority?) than they should have. They don't know how to temper their responses because frankly they don't know how to read people. On the other side of the coin some Social Workers are some of the nicest most helpful people you will ever have the pleasure of knowing. Sometimes its just the luck of the draw. It sounds like your draw was for sh!t. It sounds like we are beginning to have a dialog here on this thread...ahh the pleasures of a family get together. Somebody get great aunt Prudence a refill on her sherry so she'll stop screaming at the cat! Just saying...I love you guys and gals...Oh Yea! Almost forgot. Happy Easter!! He is Risen!! Edited 'cause I forgot my smiley face guys.

Kit, Thanks.

OMG! I missed a food fight? Oh rats! I really hate missing things...lost my brain last week and I'm still looking for parts of it. Hey Mr. Man! Welcome to the best place for grease spots in the world. Here it is always midnight so you are always welcome. If you ever need anything or whatever feel free to send me a cyber jingle. I think I've figured out how to use those things? :P BTW, I do bite but I promise you'll like it.