Eyesopen

When you look at how much time passed before these books were written and think about the hundreds of more years that passed before they were canonized, and then the various translations - there is no telling how much was adapted from other cultures, how much was changed and edited along the way-etc. Then there were the writings that were left out altogether, most of which have never been recovered. It is mind boggeling.

I still find this subject interesting and would like to learn more about the role of the moon in pagan worship, as the Jewish calendar is based upon the lunar cycle to this day.

I am absolutely fascinated by this!

You're right it is mind boggeling! It's funny we put such emphasis on the many errors and such in the NT and yet completely overlook the same problem expounded by several hundred more years on the OT. This is what fascinates me!

I haven't had time this weekend to research the moon thing, guard drill weekend is a really busy time for me. But I promise I will get on it on Monday at the latest.

I am so happy to hear that Buster is doing better!

FC You bring up some very interesting information. I am going to check it all out when the weekend is over and I have time. Thanks for all the cool links!

Interesting theory, but how do we know Eve never heard the voice of God?

In Judaism, it is taught that Eve disobeyed God and HER punishment was that SHE had to submit to Adam. However, it was not originally God's plan to make women submissive to men, they were to be equal partners. All women were not to be punished for Eve's mistake, but it did sort of work out that way. Over time, women began righting this mistake - God told Abraham to listen to his wife, Rebecca knew what Isaac did not about Jacob, etc.

I went back and reread Genesis 1 and 2. In chapter 1 verses 27-31 it clearly shows that God is talking to both Adam and Eve when He is talking about what they are allowed to eat. But the verses do not mention the trees.

In chapter 2 verses 15-17 God gives only Adam the commandments concerning the trees and in verse 18 God creates the woman from the rib of man.

Now, if I were to take this on face value alone it would appear that God omitted the commandments concerning the trees when speaking to the two of them. Perhaps expection Adam to fill in the blanks. But you are right, I do not know for a fact that Eve was not told by God personally about the trees.

As for the rest of it I think that I can agree with all of it regardless of whether or not Eve was told by God or Adam. I think you are right that woman was never meant to be subserviant to man. The verses that I just read clearly state that woman was to be a help mate to man. Which indicates equality.

Wow, I am glad I wasn't there! How awful!

All these years later, I wish I had had the sense to leave. But this is me stubborn Miss Fixit. I still have a letter that I wrote to Rev Muttindale asking him to fix the problem..he wrote on the bottom of my letter "I'm trying". I believed him...I'm shaking my head again.

Jeez Eyes, that's an amazing story. I always wondered what it was like for the corps who were in residence during that time.

It figures, it was all you guys fault, wasn't it? Don't worry, CG**r said 90% of the WC was possessed.

So, how did you find out you were marked to leave before that, and why did they keep you on? What schmucks.

It sounds like this was used to start "purging" the corps right then adn there. How many of you were called in and asked to leave?

How were you treated by the others while waiting for your rides, did they even feed you??

Did they not say anything to the corps staying that you had been kicked out? If they did say something, were those asked to leave ostracized by their "brothers and sisters"?

All very good questions Sunesis, let me take them one at a time and tell you what I remember. To begin with I know that HQ handled things a little differently than Gunnison and Emporia.

First off for the most part the degregation of the ministry was laid at the feet of the 16th. We werent spiritual enough, we werent mature enough, we werent taught right by our senior corps the "lazy" ones...We were told that CG was talking about us the 16th when he said 90% were screwed up the rest of the corps was the 10%. With all the crap that LCM blamed us for I dont know why he didn't just disolve the 16th, not that he didn't threaten to, but why didn't he?

I must admit that Rev Fart did not like me anyway, and he let me know it long before LEAD (Jan 86) but on LEAD he set me up, but again thats another story. Suffice it to say he couldn't purge me then because although I didn't do what he wanted he had bigger problems, as my LEAD group came back very injured. Many lost parts of their feet, lots of people left, many sued, the LEAD coordinators were reassigned. It was a mess. I didn't listen to their advice and came back in one piece. They couldn't afford to "can" me because I knew where the error took place and I was , literally the walking evidence.

Some of the "canning" took place right away. Emporia especially got rid of anyone that was asking too many questions, too loudly. If it started any kind of ruckess (sp), they were told that they were too immature or something and told to go home.

We were never given any numbers of who called in or how many at Emporia, perhaps they did at HQ. We only know that it happened because some of us stayed in contact with HQ for a time. But our "free" contact with the other campuses was severely limited after POP. They did not want us to communicate.

After the first week of shock was over and her royal highny returned lots of new rules sprang up. I can't prove it but I am fairly certain that they went through every single person still left on campus and made their initial decisions then. You know how they used to filter out the women that would most likely be influenced to sleep with VP? Well it was something like that. They determined who would most likely become a Loy robot and worked down from there. It's not like they needed a reason to kick someone out but I think that they were still trying to save a little face at this point. I really think that they started with the 14th they were slated to graduate soon and LCM probably didn't want to hand out too many diplomas to those that wouldn't back him.

Again I can't prove it but this is what the impression was.

Gunnison kind of stood off to the side all this time as Rev Lardbut was VERY full of himself and would in no wise have any half baked corps in his lot. Besides he had a building to complete they didn't have time to run a purge. What and lose all that free skilled labour, are you kidding?

How were those leaving treated, well the first wave left in the dark of night...any questions? In truth there was a mixed bag of responses to those that were leaving. But as time went on and the more tolerant wised up and left the hard core people would give anyone a hard time for even mentioning CG. It became very Nazi like at Emporia and I didnt even stay there all year.

But in defence of those that left at night, I think they left that way because of the condemnation. I know that up until about a year ago, when I came back here to GS, I felt that I had failed because I didn't finish the corps. I wasn't good enough, not spiritual enough, I was sub par for not standing by the MOG when he was in need. I just cant believe that all these years later I still believed it. In fact I couldn't believe that any of you, my senior corps would even talk to me, let alone forgive me for failing. (That's probably the biggest reason that I didn't stay the first time I came to GS back in 2001. I really believed what LCM had taught that the 16th were not good enough to be in the company of real corps. And I didn't even finish.) This is me just shaking my head at all the years wasted.

Anyway, onward we go...Most of the folks that were waiting for rides would still dine with the rest, at least for the first week after POP. But then afterwards if they told Rev Fart that they were leaving they had better have their bags packed because they were going to be escorted off of campus right then and there. I remember one night I was on bless patrol (something I seldom did after they found out I could cook), I saw one of our corps sisters sitting on the grass surrounded by bags right outside the gate, the one on the right as you approach Emporia. She was just sitting there with her head in her hands. I was going to go and talk to her but I was stopped by someone and told to stay on the grounds. I was relieved a short while later and never put on bless patrol again, even after I was transfered to Gunnison.

As LCM became more bold and cocky life inside became like a true military training camp. Those that were leaving were seldom allowed to talk to anyone. They were isolated by leadership not ostracized by their piers, they were anathema once they left their names were not to be spoken again. It was what we were ordered to do. I personally never felt anything against them, it was their decision and I was in fact doing some serious questioning myself.

Rev Fart tried so very hard to get the people that he didn't like to make mistakes. He had his own little band of SS troops that stood in doorways listening to conversations and phonecalls. Some people would return to thier room and find their things had been gone through. You couldn't trust anyone so if you were smart you never spoke out of turn, you memorized your retemories, you never slept in a teaching and you never ever spoke a negative thing about the BOT ever.

Oh and the last question to answer, how did I find out...I still had some friends at HQ that were 16th. One had heard LCM's little sis Carrie, who was also 16th bragging about how she had "arranged" my downfall beginning with the LEAD trip we had gone on. She also managed to survive the trip with all of her toes, others did as well. I made that sound like it was everyone but it was really only about 60% that came back damaged in some way. Sorry.

So Sunesis thank you for asking. It was not until now answering your questions and actually puting it onto "paper" that I can so clearly see just how programed I was...I was a good little Nazi. Sorry 'bout the mushy stuff.

WW say hay to your hubby, he was my elder corps and even though I probably didn't know him it's just nice to hear that someone else survived and made it to GS.

Eyes, what corps were you in, if you don't mind my asking. Did corps people really sneak away in the night after POP? I never knew that.

I was in the 16th, ok yes I know I'm the baby here with all you elder corps, but I can tell why there are so few 16th and probably 14th running around these days. We were in res. when POP was read. Yes the night that it was read to the corps, ya'll probably called in for the phone hook up; I dont remember if it was all the same night, because I remember hearing it twice in res. Anyway the first night that it was read many were crying, some were just staring, others angry and then those that didn't seem to care. There were lots of phone calling going on, it was impossible to find an unused phone. They all had major lines of people waiting to use them. No matter where you went you heard either crying or yelling or both. But we were told to just go back to our dorm, talk to someone if we needed to. There was no after meeting. Rev Fart and wife didn't come up on stage, he just spoke from the back of the room and then left.

The next morning he stopped by at breakfast. The room was short a fair number of people. Bless patrol had reported cars and taxis coming up to the gate most of the night. He told us that there would be no classes today and everyone was just supposed to work the word and make sense of everything. He told us that many had left from all the campuses, mostly Emporia. More had already announced their intentions to leave as soon as their ride or their money showed up. He never ate and didn't stay long. It was kind of like this for about a week. We kept expecting Cindy to come and tell us what really was going on...it had to be some joke...right? But she had left for HQ, never told us.

Then the reports of people leaving from the field started coming in, then POP was read to everyone else. It was a mad hayday at Emporia. We were told that if we left then we were weak and not committed to God or His ministry at all. We would be unsalted and worse than greasespots. Well you all know the condemnation speal. The 14th corps became the "lazy" corps and the 16th corps became the scapegoats. We just weren't spiritual enough or this whole thing would not have happened. Those that stayed were expected to be obediant without question and if we weren't reasons were found to kick us out or keep us from coming back depending on where you fell on the list. It was methodical, almost like they were going alphabetically. Watching and waiting on each one of us to see if we would "screw up".

Anyway that was life for the 16th after POP. I found out from a friend that stayed at HQ after I was asked to use the door that Rev Fart had decided that I needed to go after my LEAD adventure, a year and a half before. But that is another story.

..."Fear is rust on your zipper"...

OMG....you have got to be kidding? I am always just amazed at how unintelligent that man actually was.

I think it's safe to say that Loy's zipper had no rust on it.

Hahahahaha

Now that was funny!

Eyes open

So your corps night was with Craig? I cannot think of ANYTHING worse. He would talk in circles, make no sense and scream.

Now if he called on you to stand and speak forth a verse and you (I) didn't know it -- I would have had a heart attack right there

No not Muttindale, Rev Fart and wife Cindy, you know her royal highny HA's daughter. And Michael Fart, he who wouldn't know a real Bible verse if it slapped him in the face.

When Muttindale came to visit he would litterally spend hours at lunch or at a special meeting screaming. Except for right after POP. He was like a little boy that had just lost his choo choo. And it was our job to cheer him up...whatever. POP was great by the way...for once Rev. Fart had nothing to say and her royal highny was too busy on the phone to care about anyone. Finally some peace and quiet. They didn't even come to meals for a while, which meant that we could actually eat! Specially since so many people had left in the night, there was lots of food left over for those of us still thinking it could all be fixed.

does luke 6:21 really say that ?

Luke 6:21: KJV

Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled.

blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.

22:

Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for he Son of man's sake,

23:

Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in the heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

I put it there to remind me that I can endure anything on this earth because my reward comes from God not man. It is also an honorary thing for those that have paid a bigger price than myself. This is my way of honoring them and maybe giving them a little something. I try to remind them that their reward is greater than that which they endured. They will not always cry or feel pain.

So "yes" it really says that.

Edited 'cause I still cant spell

no i don't know

but i'll bet someone here can direct you

i will try to find it

Thanks I appreciate that very much.

blurts

Ok you really have to back up and read the context before you read "blurts"

Either that or someone is smoking wacky weed too close to my house again. :unsure:

have you ever read about poor rochelle and sunesis's comments

Concerning the Farts? No. Do you have a link or know where I can find them?

as far as the farts..... they should have gone through the wall, eh ?

Oh I think nearly everyone dreamed of that at least once, especially Cindy, he was a worm without her.

Whatever happened to that Allen Gym project?

I think we used it for storage...

Ya'll were obviously more spiritual than we were. Emporia was all beautified by the time we got there. So we did lots of housekeeping. Everything was cleaned at least twice a day, except dining that was three times a day.

I remember some very spiritual person suggesting we string the dining room benches to line up with the head table and each other in some geometric spiritual design. I'm so glad I was in the kitchen when that one was suggested. My spitting coffee might have hit a person.

Wonder if they can turn *un-loved* ones into a lump of coal??

Hahahahahahahaha

Thanks!

Oh thank the Lord that I missed all of that excitement! We got to listen to the voice comming out of the wall at Emporia.

Then the great and wonderful Rev Fart would come out and drone on for an hour or so about what his darling, spoiled son Skyler had done that day. If we were really 'blessed' the marvelously monsterous Cindy would come out and share how dissapointed she was in some little insignificant thing for another hour.

Then it was off to twig...my twig coordinator was a realist we talked about just about anything that was actually interesting and then when it seemed like we had been at twig long enough so we wouldn't get into trouble we went off to bed.

I just loved that woman...wonder whatever happened to her?

Alright back to the fall of women in the church.

The first century church clealy had a few women that stood out as prominant members of the church. But by the second century the male dominated world was having its influence on the young church. The bible as we know it had yet to be compiled and in addition to the books we find within the Bible there were several other "epistles' floating around. Most were written my early church leaders not one of the original apostles or disciples of Christ. By the second century most of the original texts that we now have in the Bible were no longer in circulation, but rather there were "commentaries" or copies of the originals. Because there was no difinitive collection of "doctrine" it was a simple matter to "mess" with what was floating around.

Karen L. King is Professor of New Testament Studies and the History of Ancient Christianity at Harvard University in the Divinity School. She has published widely in the areas of Gnosticism, ancient Christianity, and Women's Studies. This is a portion of one of her short works concerning the prominance of women in the 1st and 2nd centuries:

"Women's prominence did not, however, go unchallenged. (from the 1st to the 2nd centuries) Every variety of ancient Christianity that advocated the legitimacy of women's leadership was eventually declared heretical, and evidence of women's early leadership roles was erased or suppressed.

This erasure has taken many forms. Collections of prophetic oracles were destroyed. Texts were changed. For example, at least one woman's place in history was obscured by turning her into a man! In Romans 16:7, the apostle Paul sends greetings to a woman named Junia. He says of her and her male partner Andronicus that they are "my kin and my fellow prisoners, prominent among the apostles and they were in Christ before me." Concluding that women could not be apostles, textual editors and translators transformed Junia into Junias, a man. Or women's stories could be rewritten and alternative traditions could be invented. "

Prof. King continues with compelling evidence concerning the change that the story of Mary Magdalen has undergone. She does not advocate that she was a love or wife of Jesus. But that she was a prominant leader in the early church. I do not disagree with her conclusions.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...irst/women.html

Check it out. I dont know how to make it a click only thing. So I guess you have to copy and paste it. Good reading.

Wow the thing works!

What is even more interesting to me though, is the patriarchal stuff and the "fall of women" caused by chauvaanism. Like I said, O.T. treatment of women would be unacceptable in our day and time - in some ways they were treated like property. However, at the same time, there were protections in place to make sure she had a means of finacial support and security.

I have a theory concerning the manner in which women were treated in the OT. Bear with me and see what you think.

Ok, Adam and Eve screwed up, right? God sent them out of the Garden and gave them a new set of rules. Eve was made the mother of all nations and she was made to have pain while giving birth. Adam was told he had to work to provide for both he and Eve and that he would know pain. There is a lot of stuff in there that we just arent going to go into here, but bottom line Adam is told that he is responsible for the care of Eve. Adam was given these things because he "hearkened to the voice of the woman", presumably instead of God. Eve did not hearken unto the voice of God because she never heard it, Adam was supposed to tell her. Because this all kind of fell through Adam was told to care for Eve. Eve was not made lesser than Adam but she was placed into his care. He became responsible for what she did, and said. Remember when God confronted them Adam blamed it all on Eve? Well I think that God is correcting that behavior. In other words Adam would not take responsibily for his own actions so now God has made him responsible for not only his own actions but hers as well.

Hence in the OT man began to put women in a position where they were well cared for as God had commanded but also uneducated and kept in the dark and away from "man talk" that way she wouldnt say anything that the man would have to take credit for. Of course not all women were treated this way in the OT.

The Greeks and Romans were fairly progessive towards women and upper class women were sent to an Elementary type of school where they learned the basics of reading, writing, math and the arts. Lower class women worked as nurses, waitresses, weavers, midwives and food vendors. None were allowed to hold public office although the Emperess of Rome came close to it. The women were regarded in the same manner that the Bible would have the depicted as virtuous, brave and devoted. The Egyptians were even more "generous" with women, after all they had Cleopatra.

I know, I know - the ick factor gets me too, so does the chauvanistic aspect - but I guess they were at least trying . . .

Oh alright, I give. In fact I'll give 'em and E for effort.

Actually I think that this was what God wanted at the time. Adam didn't properly mind his garden and then blamed it all on her so now everyone needed to understand the point.

I pray your little Buster is just shook up and needs a little TLC and a long nap.

No, I do not think worshipping a goddess equates with idolotry. Is there a right god and a wrong god? Or are there simply different ways of recognizing and paying tribute to the one god? Do you think God really cares if we worship him by eating a piece of bread and drinking some wine on sunday vs lighting candles on Friday night vs the many other rituals used to recognize him/her?

That was actually a question that was born out of amoking. Well all of them were. They just popped up as I was thinking.

The more I study about the goddess the more I am inclined to think that she is actually another aspect of our Heavenly Father. And no I dont think God really cares if we worship him by lighting candles or drinking wine. From what I have been seeing in the Bible throughout the entire thing OT and NT, God was more interested in intent and where a person's heart was/is than the form of worship that was taken.

A vast number of teachings in both ends of the book revolve around someone's attitude. From Adam whos "imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" to being born again, "with the heart man believeth unto righteousness" and the two comandments on which hang all the law and the prophets require one to love God and love your neighbor. (abriviated) God makes great emphasis on heart and whats in it or whats not in it.

Now the worship of Ishtar the goddess is another matter entirely. The followers of Ishtar were good enough to provide this little bit of information:

"A fundamental difference in the concept of worship is important to note: In the Temples of the old ways people would go to the temple TO BE WORSHIPPED not to worship. Women would go to the temple to serve the Goddess to embody Her, to represent Her, to be worshipped as Her. Women would spend a day, or a week, or a year serving at the Temple as a priestess, as a sacred Prostitute, as a whore in service to the Goddess. There they would be worshipped as the incarnation of the Goddess, as The Goddess Herself.

Men would come to Her Temple TO BE WORSHIPPED. Men would be welcomed and served by the Priestesses and men would represent the divine male principal, the Horned One, the Sacred Bull, The God. Men would come to the temple to give their love and passion to The Goddess, and would receive the passion, love, and affection of The Goddess."

Of course Ishtar was not the only goddess but she was/is the big one in the lands that we traditionally call the Bible lands. This is not of course the entire story. It is important to remember that sex in other parts of the world is not viewed as puritanically as most Americans see it.

I don't know. I am starting to wonder if the different names don't represent the different names various cultures used in Biblical times, as opposed to the aspect teaching of TWI. Perhaps in those days there was some understanding that "all the gods are one god." Perhaps the different names represent different authors and the name that particular author knew god by. That is one of the theories presented by a number of scholars and it explains some of the contradictions in the O.T. - such as those between Exodus and Deuteronomy.

I was kind of thinking in that direction, that each "tribe" had a different name for God because each tribe saw him differently for instance one could have known God as a kind and benevolent being so they called him something that meant that. The next tribe knew God as an all powerful being and so they called him that. And so on...perhaps that is how we got so many names for the same being. In other words perhaps it is both. Obviously they didn't speak the same language so when the children of Isreal were given a description of the local God they named him with a Hebrew word. Does that make any sense?

Before we go too far amok - and I don't mind going amok at all - I wanted to mention the title of the book. (lest I forget - HA)

The modern religious world would find Tamar's behavior shocking and immoral - to play a whore and seduce her father-in-law! But one of her son's from her union with Judah is the ancestor of both David and Jesus.

We tend, at times anyway, to view morality issues as black and white. It is either moral or it isn't. Yet time and time again in the bible there are examples of immoral behavior that ultimately lead to something good - that perhaps wasn't really so immoral afterall under the specific set of circumstances.

Just for the record I think that we have managed to keep this thread somewhat close to the line while still running amok at times. It is so hard to keep a doctrinal thread on track because so much relates to other things.

Anyway I remember this story. I have always thought it was a strange law that if a man died without progeny his brother could fulfil the duty. Not only is it not biologically possible but it just seems kind of disgusting to me. I mean what if you got the only good looking man of the bunch and then he goes and dies and you get to have sex maybe repeatedly with his snaggletoothed brother....yuk! Now if the brother is some handsome Adonis then a person might want to hasten the hubbies demise...I'm sorry I digress...shallow me.. :D

But really I do understand the reason for it but, I don't know...I just don't think that I can just sleep with someone for that purpose. Too much pressure, its one thing to do that because you want to and a whole other matter to be told you have to.

I have heard this section used by some people to show how God was sadistic and a hypocrite because with her husbands death Gods law "forced the woman to be raped by her brother in law" or in this case to become a whore to fulfil a "sadistic God's law".

I do not agree with these sentiments mind you but as you say some people see morality as black and white and they often dont look into the whole story.

It also leaves me wondering who it was that finally succeeded in eliminating all but the faintest traces of goddess worship from the Bible, Judaism, and Christianity - and how and why.

Goddess worship had been unpopular in cycles. The ancient Babylonians for example were huge goddess worshippers. All of their Ziggurat (sp) towers were built for Ishtar and Baal, but primarily Ishtar as she was mother earth among other things. When Babylon fell their religion was replaced by a single male God.

The original Hindi nation worshipped two gods one of each, until they were conquered by the Moslems. The ancient Celts, both Germanic and Irish/Scottish worshipped the two gods, until they were conquered by the Greeks and then Romans respectively. Some of the culture remained until the Romans became the "Christians".

Catholics are not the same as the original Christians. The Catholic religion is a combination of the Roman religions and the Christian religion. The trinity bears a striking resemblance to the Roman Tirad. Candle lighting for the dead comes from wicca candle magic, confirmation names come from the wicca 'naming', the worship of saints comes from the Pantheon of the gods of all the conquered nations...I could go on but you get the point. A couple of things that came with the Christians was a hatred of homosexuals (which is a long story about a 1st century Bishop that had a major homophobia akin to LCM) and their denegration of the female in the church.

Some of their opinions of females came from the Pauline apistles. We have all read the verses. But it also came with the 1st and 2nd century notion that the fall of man was completely and totally the fault of Eve. This thinking came about because the men of those centuries were reexamining why mankind needed a savior in the first place. The societies that these men were in were patriarchal and some of the men were simply put, chauvanistic (sp). They had way too much testasterone and time on their hands. So if it was Eve's fault then man must be better than women. The word of God was stretched to suit their doctrine and women became the weaker sex.

The leaders of the early church did as most people in power they organized their beliefs and religion to fit their agenda. To hell with the truth.

I would get into it more and if you need clarification let me know but I really have to go to work now.

Love ya.

The Swastika in its original form went the other direction, i.e. clockwise. It is an ancient Hindi symbol that symbolizes regeneration and the cycles of the earth. Each arm has a designation although right now I don't remember them. As a side note the Hindi religion warned Hitler against basterdizing their symbol by turning it against itself and using it for evil. They told him that no good would come of it. As it turns out the Romans also used this symbol. Hitler tried very hard to remake the Roman empire with him as the Emporer.

I still hold to the idea that we all worship one single God with many different aspects. As I understand the names utilized in the Bible each one symbolized the manner in which God was interacting with a group of people or a person. This I know is some of TWI teaching that was plagerized but I think that it may be at least on the right track.

As I said before when I was 'amoking' I think that perhaps God is not strictly a "He" or a "She" as God seems to be all things to all men. Therefore, now this might throw you, is worshipping a goddess idolatry? Hmmm.... Along those lines how can we tell which god is the wrong god? I mean outside of the obvious...do we stick with the 'if it quacks like a duck' mentality...do we judge this other god by his/her fruit? It just seems that it should be simpler.

Interesting thing about the snake...I had forgotten that aspect. Remember that it is a figure of speech but why use such symbolism if it does not apply? Perhaps the snake indicated change but it came too soon? Adam and Eve weren't ready to receive what they did when they ate that fruit. The Jews make a very valid point when considering this issue. Like Abi it makes me wonder what they should have learned before they ate.

Roy, stop...you're making me blush. ...holy cold spiritual shower....

The teaching is on here in several places, Eyes. One of the links in my posts above will most likely lead you to it, otherwise you can use the search function in the top right corner of the screen. I'd suggest using the following search option: +eve +eyes +desire +satan

Thanks Belle, Those links and posts were very enlightening.

On a personal note I must say that I really appreciate the manner in which you post. Your thoughts are well organized and comprehensive and you present convincing arguments.

Let's see now, I had one broken window, one broken full length door mirror, one nearly broken thumb on the "annoying" older sister, one nearly shattered calf (retribution for the thumb), one broken water pipe, several flooded yards/basements, two trash can fires in the house, untold number of strange and unusual critters in the house (usually for the benefit of an older sister) oh and I musn't forget the truck being rolled into the street nearly every night for about a month.

I really cant remember everything...life is a lot of fun with children!

Fun times.

Which the lesbian snake or the masturbating mother of all?

Thanks Bolshevik!

The lesbian snake thing.

But you answered that. I know how he would rant on and on about "homos" like he had a demon by the tail and was bound and determined to hang on until it ran out of gas. If he hadn't hurt so many it would be laughable. But the pain he caused was no joke.

If he had been honestly working the word he would have seen that the most cataclysmic sin in the world is idolatry. It leads to everything else. But he was on such a crusade...

He really made me think even then that he was a homo in hetero sheep skin. No one chases demons that hard unless they are trying to catch the one that haunts them. (figuratively of course)

Just thinking...