Eyesopen

Perhaps the conscience has more to do with our desire to do what's right, and we learn what's right from external sources (i.e. God, the Word, experience etc.)?

Maybe that is why God places such an emphasis on "intent" in the Bible.

I think that conscience is that thing in us that when we are born is just "clean", like a brand new chalk board. We write and erase things on that board our entire lives as we learn things and our "moral" values change. Everything and everyone in our lives effect us and therefore effect our conscience, even if they have not direct contact with us, (the decisions of world leaders for example do effect us even though we never come into direct contact with them).

When Adam and Eve were created, they were like babies. Their brand new conscience was like a babies would be today. It hadn't been written on yet, until God talked to them and gave them some "do's and don'ts".

So I guess I agree with others here that the conscience was something that Adam and Eve had before they ate of the tree. But I think that eating that fruit taught them what "wrong" was. They had never done "wrong" up until that point, so they had no way of truly comprehending what "wrong" was. It would be like offering someone a hamburger that had never even heard of one. They would have no way of knowing if it was right/wrong or good/bad. So when this other being offered them the tree and told them that it was good...well you know the story.

The adding of the knowledge of good and evil made them like gods and also set them apart from other animals. So it is possible that this conscience is what is in the image of God as other animals do not have one that I am aware of...do they?

Just thinking out loud...and I'm really tired today...so the thinking is a bit blah...

Great thread by the way!

Construction glue. Comes with many names but it is a glue used, obviously in construction. You find it in the "Caulking" section of a hardware store. Comes in a long tube and you apply it with a caulking gun. Barring that see if they have a "Gorilla" glue that meets your specs. Their wood glue is awsome!

Good luck, sounds like fun!

OUTSTANDING!!!!!!!!! Brag on girl, Brag on....

Hi Through. I relate to your post. For many years I was deathly ashamed of TWI and that I was involved with it. It just takes time to heal. Don't fret about it. You don't need to advertise that TWI was part of your life. Think of it as a bad bout with an illness that has been treated, and that you are now healing up from. Hang out here, do some searches on topics that interest, or concern, you. Lots of love gets poured out in these pages...go find it...it will help the healing process. Want some prayer? Just ask. It's awful nice to know you've found people who understand what you are going thru, and are willing to help, or just listen.

That's some good advice for a lot of folks. Some folks were hurt more than others and I have noticed that the "crime" didn't have to be a "major" one (not quite sure how to say this without making anyone feel belittled) sometimes something that one person would consider 'trivial" really packed a punch to someone else. I guess what I am saying is that no-one need feel embarrassed, or think that they need to appologize for not being 'victimized'. Just have a seat, relax, you all are among family, and if not family then at least among folks that care, regardless of what cult or religion we once or now belong to.

I'm here because after being in my self imposed isolation for so long I finally decided to stick my head out of my proverbial shell and Google TWI. This came up...as many testify...I got caught up on the news and met a few folks in the process. I stay because I enjoy talking to ya'll, and I am finding that some of the stuff that I had relegated to the dark and dingy shelves labeled "Never touch again!" in my mind actually need to be taken out and dusted. If some of my experiences help others...so much the better. I also find that folks in the world don't understand what I am saying when I talk about some of my time in TWI. But they don't go nuts when I tell them that I was in a cult either.

I also stick around for all the wonderful stuff that Rainbow said...

Cursed be Canaan You have caused me to be incapable of begetting another fourth son (Gen. Rabbah , manuscripts, and early editions read: a fourth son) to serve me. Cursed be your fourth son, that he should minister to the children of these older ones [shem and Japhet], upon whom the burden of serving me has been placed from now on (Gen. Rabbah 36:7). Now what did Ham see (what reason did he have) that he castrated him? He said to his brothers,“The first man [Adam] had two sons, and one killed the other so as to inherit the world, and our father has three sons, and he still desires a fourth son!” - [from Gen. Rabbah ibid. 5,

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I had to think on this for a while and I am still adjusting to being a mom again.

So is the Rabbi saying that Ham castrated Noah because he was jealous and did not want another brother?

But why was Canaan cursed and not Ham. Ham had other children why did God choose the youngest?

Am I bugging you yet? This topic has always just been like a sticker under the skin, just enough pain to bug me.

Yeah, it was amazing. Sometimes it seemed to me like the worse LCM screamed at some of these hapless souls, the more tenacious they were. There was also a couple in F19 that had several children - his, hers, and theirs. They got pregnant again their practicum year and caused LCM to express exceeding great rage and fury regarding their "Catholic" mentality. I don't remember if they were allowed to stay WC or not, but this all happened not too long before the Great Forehead's downfall.

Sorry for the but it just popped into my mind.

WG

Some people find that such adversity merely fuels their motivation machine. It is almost a "I'll show him!" mentality.

As for I have derailed more than one thread in my short time here. In fact that is where this one came from...another thread...so as not to derail it further.

Love ya lots (((((WG)))))

WG- it is truly amazing that this woman would stay. I just have to shake my head. God Bless her and all the other tortured souls.

I made "fool' first time around. Hmmmph...

Yup, I remember how they treated the Panarello's after the Craig departure..

Brought them from their cozy place in Ohio to a small adjoining room location in Founder's Hall at HQ.. Talk about a dark location for them. They had nothing they were used to, no room to live, and not much access to the Ohio limb they were suppose to oversee from their tiny room. They didn't even have a private phone in their room to take calls from those in the Limb, and instead had to take those calls in the hallway with everyone else in Founder's Hall listening.. Yup.. No privacy. No room. Screwed up life being watched daily by TWI. So they secretly slipped away into the night after about 2 month of living at HQ..

I don't blame em..

I want to say "unbelievable" but unfortunately it is all too believable.

OMG....Thanks Socks....that was pure torture!!!! I can't believe that I actually listened to the whole thing!! I couldn't watch it...But I heard the whole drawn out, thing....aaaarrrrrggggg...I think I'm gonna need resurrecting soon....is somebody here in fellowship?

I never really liked praying out loud in fellowships because as many have said here, there was an expected manner of prayer. So when I was asked to I would mouth all that was expected and then at the end throw in some stuff that came from the heart. I didn't want to short God or worse mock Him.

In TWI we were as Rascal said taught to use a list, a lift list to be specific. Even went we were SITing. It was very cold and impersonal.

But when I was alone, even if it was just between classes or at work, I would talk to God the way that my earthly father had taught me. My dad always told me that he didn't need a religion to tell him how to talk to his father, so then why did he need one to learn how to talk to his heavenly father? Didn't God have a son too? Doesn't He know how kids act? Of course He does...so why treat him like an idiot, or the First National Bank. Dad used to comment after fellowship that if any of his kids were to talk to him the way that these people talk to their heavenly father he would read then the riot act.

So my fellowship with my heavenly father has always been more of a discussion. I often find myself thanking Him throughout the day for little things that I notice. And I never ask for specific things. I don't remember where I learned it I think it was a VP teaching, "don't ask for money to buy a car, ask for a car". I change it a bit more to "Hey dad, I don't think this car is gonna make it too much longer. I can't fix what's wrong with it so...what do you think...let me know. Thanks"

My problem comes with prayer to Jesus. Between the Catholic Church's excess and TWI's ignoring...I just have a lot of trouble developing that relationship. But I am working on it.

speaking of gullible....

can anyone else confirm that the PFAL book is no longer available at der Vey?

Welcome Preacher man.

I called the bookstore about a year ago, I asked for a current list of what's available from them. She told me that she would send me a copy of all the books presently available and all of the tapes/cd's/videos available. But then she added "If you're looking for something by Dr. don't bother. We no longer carry anything of his."

I was surprised that after looking me up in their database that she spoke to me. But she was very cordial and polite. She called me one of the "old timers". Don't know if I like that term. ^_^

Npe wolfy,

Hehehehehe...wolfy...hehehehe

What is your question Eyes? Curiosity is killing me - lol!

Anyway, here is what I found within Judaism on Evening Star, Morning Star, and the Serpent:

Ok...if you insist...drum roll please...

Just kidding it isnt that big a thing but ya'll have the history so could you please clear up this little nagging thorn for me?

Remember Noah? Course you do.

Genesis 9:21-27:

And Noah began to be an husbandman and he planted a vineyard:

And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

And Ham, the fater of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their fathers nakedness.

And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

And he said, 'Cursed be Canaan: a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."

And he said, 'Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

God shall enlarge Japheth, and Canaan shall be his servant."

Ok, first question; the 'nakedness' of Noah can refer to either his own physical being without clothing, it can refer to his wife's physical being without clothing and in some cases can be referring to sexual intercourse. Which is it here?

Next question: why did Noah curse Canaan and not Ham? Canaan was Ham's youngest son, is that significant? VP taught that the son's actions were the responsibility of the father. But then again he also taught concerning this section that Ham had castrated Shem and so both lines were cursed but that is not what my Bible says.

Sorry to derail here but this topic has been buggin me for years. We could start another thread.

First, I have to say I found it very interesting to find that Rashi (a Hebrew scholar who predates Jesus) teaches the serpent account in Genesis in a very similar fashion to the way TWI taught it. He states that some of the verses are juxtaposed. He also says the serpent saw Adam and Eve naked (hence the need for god to provide clothing later) and having sex and that the serpent desired Eve. Rashi points out how Eve added to what God said regarding not touching the tree, and that made it easier for the serpent to deceive her. Further, the serpent was hoping Eve would feed it to Adam first, thus causing Adam to die, so the serpent could have Eve all to himself.

So maybe ole VP borrowed something from Rashi? Or someone else did? Or VP actually read the account and figured this out for himself...ok too far fetched

But really spirit beings cannot copulate with flesh. I find it difficult to imagine spirit being attracted to flesh. The opposite of course, ie flesh being attracted to spirit...the NT speaks of the differences between flesh and spirit, its like apples and oranges. So I'm not so sure that Rashi had the right of it there. Perhaps the serpent was jealous..an argument can be made for that I think....

and now I get to run amok amok amok :) I was thinking, "in the day though eatest thereof though shall surely die" or however exactly that was worded. Obviously they didn't die. Perhaps what was really intended is that Adam and Eve, having only animal instinct, had no knowledge or concept of death - they would have eventually died like all animals die, but they weren't aware of that fact. Once they ate, they became aware of the concept of what death really was?

In other words upon eating they gained wisdom, enough so that they were now set apart from other animals mentally and in so doing they became aware of their own mortality? I can buy that. In fact that makes good sense...bear with me...why would God make a tree of eternal life if Adam and Eve were created that way? If they were created as VP taught it, perfectly so that they would never die then why did God make a tree that bore fruit that upon eating would grant eternal life? Foreknowledge? I don't think so. That just sounds like a catch all phrase for "I don't know" At least in this instance and TWI teaching.

As far as I know the tree of life isn't mentioned again in the bible, is it?

Feeling a bit better today, though tired. :)

Glad to hear that you are feeling better. :)

There is very little information on the "evening star" though what I did find would link it to venus and also to Ishtar.

The "morning star" is also lined to venus, as well as lucifer (in Isa 13). However, it should be noted that within Judaism, Lucifer is not seen as the Christian Devil, but is understood to be a referrence to Nebuchadnezzer and his attempt to rule over Israel.

Another reference, which I found very fascinating and sort of ties the evening and morning star together, was a reference to Esther beeing a woman like the morning star because she cloaked her identity until the proper time to reveal herself arrived. Another article linked Esther to Ishtar!

Ok, so do you think that our wonderful Esther was perhaps the inspiration or was in fact Ishtar and Venus? In different religions?

Yup I went LEAD too, wasnt as bad as yours, I just starved during my duo because I ate the designated food during the hiking previous to the "duo"

Continue to read the book.

Greetings to you Preacher! Welcome to the spot. Word Wolf has some wonderfully helpful advice for you that will help answer a great many of your questions and perhaps a few that you did not know you had.

If you need assistance don't be afraid to ask, but as WW says please be polite.

love ya bro

Honestly, I had made up my mind to go and do my best if they told us we were going. That pretty well describes my mindset through all of corps training.

I can relate. It was kind of like going to a dance because you are expected to and pretending to actually like dancing! <_< (This white girl aint got no rythm!)

Any way we can find out how Martin Luther was a "Jew hater?" Was it anywhere in his writings? I find that incredulous.

Glad to accomodate:

Martin Luther: The Jews and Their Lies (excerpts of "Letters to Spalatin")

I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has aneasy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen.

I brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule-- if my counsel does not please your, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews, lest we become guilty sharers before God in the lies, blasphemy, the defamation, and the curses which the mad Jews indulge in so freely and wantonly against the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, this dear mother, all Christians, all authority, and ourselves. Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us.... .With this faithful counsel and warning I wish to cleanse and exonerate my conscience.

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly - and I myself was unaware of it - will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

(He continues with a 7 point plan)

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/luther-jews.html

This is only one such source. It is well documented in German history that Hitler gleened a great deal of his "Jew hating material" from Martin Luther.

Hi Eyes,

Thanks for posting all of that information. I've been wanting to get back to this thread but have been busy (birthday parties for kiddo's, work, etc.) and then sick. :(

Hope its nothing serious? Get back when you can I have another question that will take us way off the topic. But I would like to hear what you know.

Love ya sis,

I posted a link to an article on the modern goddess movement in OPEN on the Wicca thread.

Recently i spent some time reading about Tiamat, snake goddesses, creation myhts on the net, some very interesting things. It is a large area of study, but the serpentasa symbol of the goddess or of creation seems to be pretty prevalent in ancient beliefs. I'd like to have the time to study it more, read the actual myrhs etc.

You are soooo right this is a very big area of study. I have had the opportunity over the past couple of years to study it just a little as it relates to something else that I am doing. It is so interesting how all of these religions from Christianity all the way back to stone age paganism all have similar aspects. It just can't be coincidence. And it cannot all be accounted for by migration either. This thought has been running nonstop in my head for quite a while. It started with the pyramids of Egypt and the Mayan pyramids and grew from there. Having others to converse with and gleen insight, knowledge and amoks from is wonderful.

Captain S.

You asked: "Did VPW speak out against the Jews?"

You bettcha!

The Advanced Class in 1973 was taught live at International HQ and had 200 to 250 students in attendance.

I am using this to illustrate because, being live, it was not subject to editing.

There are probably others here at GSC who were there as well.

At this class, he did a lengthy presentation illustrating that he knew the Jews of modern day are not the same Jews of the Bible. He scoffed at the State of Israel(modern day) and said that when God calls Israel back to unity "He will not use Jumbo Jets".(his words)

He called the modern state of Israel a fraud and a deliberate trick of the adversary(ie: the Devil)

He laughed at the Holocaust and said it was all a fabrication(a lie)

He went on to recommend we all read "The Myth Of The 6 Million" and "The Thirteenth Tribe". These two books are designed to deny the Holocaust and the Jewish people. Would you really not read these books when the MOG just endorsed them?

He also stated that God had given up on Israel as a chosen people and that we, the "true believers" were actually God's chosen ones in this day and time.

There's lots more but that's at least my 2 cents.

I heard this as well although I was not in this class. I do know that VP always recommended those two books for reading, and I distinctly remember him telling us that the Jews that were in Isreal today are "frauds". (His words not mine) He said that they were not of a "pure" bloodline, and were no better than converted slaves. They did not deserve respect or pity from any other race. He always seemed very proud of his heritage and I know that he was a big follower of both Hitler and Martin Luther both of which were avid Jew haters. (Hitler got the majority of his Jew hating terminology from Martin Luther, the original not King or Jr.)

As for Craig being the prefect physical icon of VP's vision of Aryan Christianity....have you seen Craig? Have you heard him? Have you read "VP and Me"? Do you know what the Hitler Youth were all about?

As for VP being a "proud German" I am certain that he would agree with that, but not all Germans would, like my fathers family for example.

Captain S.- I know that you want answers but as someone else said to you in another thread, try to make a statement. We have all been grilled by the best...face to face...we didn't take it then...some of us do not appreciate the inquisition treatment that you give others.

I knew a girl from the 17th corps who was upset she didn't get to do LEAD. She said she had a mini lead experience by rapelling off the auditorium at HQ. I bet THAT was an experience. It's kind of stupid that someone might feel their program was inferior because they didn't get to do things that others did.

Actually I think that this is indicative of the propagnda that TWI put out concerning some of their programs. LEAD was touted as being a very cool thing to do. I never heard anything negative about it before I myself went. And as I have already stated when we got back no body spoke to us about it. Truly if it was brought up our experiences were belittled or we were told that we were overreacting or out of fellowship, or worse. So we all just stopped talking about it with anyone. If someone were to ask me at say the Rock if I had gone LEAD the correct answer was "Yes, it was great!" Any negative response or remark within a response needed to be "qualified". Something like, "Yes, it was really cold and some folks got frost bite. But they were healed by the leaders (pick your fav MOG). So everything turned out great!" I just didn't talk about it. Until now.

For a long time when things would go wrong as they do, I would think "Ok is this punishment for something I did or thought?" It took years to bring that thought under control. I don't know why it bugged me for so long. Every once in a while even today I will catch myself having that stray thought "What did I do..."

It just makes me so friggin' sick.

I too watched him getting more and more out there. He could not stand the pressure of "top" leadership. After POP was read at corps week that year, they had him all drugged up at the ROA and were afraid he would commit suicide. People rise to their level of incompetence - LCM as president was a classic example of this. Plus, one of his wife's sisters told me both sets of parents were worried he was too young to have so much power, money, etc. under him. He is a true example of leadership, "not being a novice, lest being lifted up with pride, they fall into condemnation of the devil."

What he did with his power was despicable, I am not excusing him, please don't anyone think I am, but I hope, with his years spent away from the organization, he will come to his senses. I believe VPW was not born again, but I believe Craig is, hopefully God will work in his heart and he can see and have a full realization of what he has done and someday try and make things right.

Well said sis,

Rottie, have you considered how close you have to get to someone to zap him with a taser?

I'd think mace or pepper spray would be a more effective form of protection for a woman. I can't see getting 6 inches from some guy with a gun to be able to "deter" him before he clobbers/shoots me.

It truly depends on the taser that you get. Some are up close and personal, in other words you have to be within arms reach and actually touch the taser to them. Some like the X26 have the darts that come out of them up to 25 feet but they cost about $1000 each (not each dart, each gun) darts are extra. The X26 can be used either way and according to the training manual it only locks up the large muscle groups not the muscles of the organs. So this specific type of taser (there is more than one type) cannot cause a heart attack. It can scare someone to death but lots of things can do that.

I suggest pepper spray, get the stream as it goes a lot further and there is less chance of it back flashing at you. Trust me you do not want that. Having been sprayed several times both from training and by my partners bad aim I can tell you it is not pleasant. I do suggest if you get pepper spray that you have someone you trust spray you once with it so that you can see how you are affected by it. Its not such a shock then if you ever have to use it.

Another point is that people that are on some types of drugs do not respond well to the electric shock taser (the common one) or pepper spray. Once again from experience, do not assume that if you hit them with either that they will immediately be incapacitated, this does not always happen if a person is shot with a gun. So dont expect it from a non lethal weapon.

My advice for personal protection is the pepper spray. It fits easily into a purse or pocket, is easy to deploy (especially if you get the key ring one) and it stops most people.

My advice for home protection is a 12 gage shotgun. Handgun rounds go through walls and endanger everyone. If you get a smaller caliber then they are ineffective. They are also hard to aim in the dark. Shotguns have several advantages, everyone knows the sound of a shotgun racking (get a pump action for best results) it is the universal sound for "you are now in deep SH!T", The round going off will light up practically any size room, you can point it in any general direction of the sound and are practically assured of hitting what made the sound if you dont the muzzle blast will show you where he is at and probably scare the sh!t out of him so now you can smell him too, and lastly the rounds do not generally pass through the walls (depending on distance of course and thickness of walls but it is much less dangerous than say a 9 mm).

Learning to use a pump action shotgun is really easy and now they have the auto feed shotgun that once the first round is out the next feeds into the chamber so in the heat of the moment a person doesn't forget what to do. It's easy when you're on the range but in the heat of the moment adreneline (sp) kicks in and if you havent trained a lot then you wont react well. So stick with easy. And stay out of reach.