Eyesopen

Yeah, it's easy to confuse Eyes and me. She's pretty and I'm not!

Its the lips babe!!

Bad/wrong/disruptive behavior can get one kicked out of any group. I don't think violating privacy issues or what people might see as safety measures is quite the same as heresy. Looks like a behavior issue, not a doctrinal one.

I thought the Inquisition was about doctrine, not behavior.

Good point. I think that often a person's behavior will reflect their contrary beliefs, i.e. Martin Luther preaching against indulgences, and it often got them unwanted attention. But you are right the Inquisition was about maintaining Church doctrine and cleansing the church of heretics or unbelievers.

Have a beautiful day! Go and do something for yourself, pamper yourself...eat icecream! Yummmmm

Johnny now you see why I am getting out. DRAMA doesn't become me.

I don't know about him, but I get it...wow all you did was start a "goodbye" thread and lookie what happened! I think they should make a smiley icon that just shakes his head 'cause this is where I would use it.

Darlin' Free, I don't know you but I think that I would have liked to get to know you. Perhaps in the future you will return to GS and bless us all once again with your insight and presence.

I wish you joy and love and in light of all of this I wish you peace. I love you sis, God Bless you and yours always.

There is more middle school drama at this site than most middle schools could muster.

Oh I don't know about that...a middle school can muster quite the bushel of drama just ask my 12 year old. The funny thing is that I can't keep up with the drama here any better than I can keep up with her drama...oh well. I just hope and pray that all of you, adults and children alike manage to work it all out before someone loses an eye.

'Cause God loves you and so do I :)

but I am definately not sane.

So good to have another person that fits in here at the Spot!

I really love your postings JJ. I even copied and save a few of them for further review...hope you don't mind. Like my profile says, I love to study and the thought processes of other folks sometimes sends me in directions that I would never have thought of on my own.

Love ya sis :)

Honest to God, it wasn't because of his "good looks"..

Oh boy....You aint just a whistling Dixie here baby!! :wacko:

Thank you WW. I was actually "hoping" that I had misunderstood him. But I guess I did not.

I suppose that what I misunderstood was the commitment that I was making when I volunteered for the Way Corps. I honestly thought that I was making a committment to God and in my heart I was, it was the Way Corps that didn't live up to its billing. They were supposed to help me keep my commitment to God; not userp it.

For years I have felt like I had failed because I never completed that 4 year tour of duty. I have condemned myself for "breaking my commitment to God". But that's just it isn't it? My commitment was to God, not to man. I left TWI behind; not God. My commitment to Him remains and I continue to honor it and keep it. So I guess I didn't fail...funny how it took me the better part of 20 years to figure that out. <_<

Hmmm...all of this belongs in the "Conscience" thread I think.

Perhaps not; as the "hook" that kept me in TWI for so long was many barbed. The biggest barb was the line "breaking your commitment to God". I could pull away only so far before someone said that and I would clench my teeth around that hook and swallow it just a bit deeper. One just couldn't go home and admit that you were a failure in God's eyes, because you broke a commitment. There was just too much shame involved.

We always have a choice, just sometimes our choices aren't what we would like. It kind of boils down to the consequences or benefits that come with the choice. Sometimes they are hard to make, kind of like our Presidential choices...oops did I say that? :huh: :P

Templelady (Maureen), you said:

"I would intuitively think the same as you, but for some unknown reason there are those groups who feel that it is their mission to do so and to, imho, undermine the group with which they are associating. In the Catholic Church, included are those groups who want the Church to change her position on abortion, those who want the Church to change her position on female ordination, those who want the Church to change her position on any number of items...none of which are possible even if the Church was inclined to do so (as they would require a change in fundamental dogma that goes FAR beyond the change that those heretics want). Why they just don't join a group that they agree with is beyond me.

Well this is my personal opinion but I think that part of the reason at least for an individual is that they feel that it is their duty to God to correct doctrinal error in God's church. In fact it is the duty of a believer to correct doctrinal error in the church. The problem occurs when the error is in an organization that doesn't really care if it aligns itself with the Word or not. Those that don't want to hear true doctrine. If I recall correctly Paul did a lot of correcting of incorrect doctrine to the extent of calling Peter out on the carpet for a doctrinal error. But in our day and perhaps in theirs as well, how does one tell exactly which organization has the true doctrine or do all of them, none of them, or perhaps a mixture, none have all the truth? So does a person go and try to fix them all? or do like Martin Luther and try to fix the one he is in and when that fails start something new? Just me rambling...the mind running amok again...

To ALL:

The bottom line is that a group has the right to establish norms and then to apply some sort of sanction against those who seek to undermine that group through violation of those norms. That's a fact. Whether you talk about a religion, a non-relgious social gathering, a nation-state, an educational institution, or whatever.

You may not like interrogation techniques of the past. I sure don't. But they were used. By almost all groups...if not literally all groups. Is that a function of the specific group? Or is that a function of the time in which those techniques were used?

You are absolutely correct in this matter. Any organization has the right to write its own rule book and expect members to follow it. They have every right to deny membership based on that rule book and the adherence to it. I think most organizations have some written law or tenent that is applied when a member is suspected or accused of subterfuge. I certainly didn't like the way that the Catholic Church handled the Inquisition but then again I didn't like the way the residents of Salem handled the witch trials either or Hitler's cleansing of Germany. But it happened and it is history. We can either learn from it or ignore it.

Well I don't have a clue as to why this post ended up like this but my stuff is in red...now it is anyway...

I'm going to bed...night all

I am always amazed tha so many here on GSC assume that LCM has not or is not posting here at GSC. After all if he gives a fake name and selects a neutral posting name who would ever know that it is Him?? the assumption that he would be forthright enough to ask to join GSC or post here using his true identity is IMO seriously flawed.

I agree. He has either been here or he comes by regularly. Probably never posts anything that would draw attention. But reads a lot.

But I wonder how many of the tales of horror were the result of fact and how many of them are just part of the 'Black Legend.'

That is a very good question Mark. In Siouxzahn's first post she made this quote:

"Supposedly only about 3000-5000 were actually put to death through the Spanish Inquisition specifically, and for that relatively small number Spain and the Spanish (Catholic) Church want to be better thought of than they have been, since during the same time period, some 150,000 were put to death across Europe for heresy and witchcraft...."

So I wonder how many of those 150,000 are still attributed to the "Spanish" Inquisition? So often I hear of the Spanish Inquisition and the heresy trials and the witchcraft trials of Europe all spoken of in the same breath as if they were all part of the one i.e. the Spanish Inquisition. Obviously some of the other "trials" took place in Spain, but all of them cannot and should not be placed at the feet of the Spanish. Hmmmm....time to do some research.

love ya

Don't take the wrong point here...

Were you trying to correct corruption or were you trying to change fundamental doctrines?

(e.g., teach TWI that they were in error with their JCNG doctrine...)

If, by saying "change TWI," you mean something along the lines of the latter, then you're agreeing with what I am saying. If you are talking about correcting the behavior of certain leaders who were abusing their posistions, then that is not at all the same thing.

No, I was referring to the doctrines. Not at all referring to trying to change a person. That is a tough one and they have to want to change themselves. You can only help them if they want it.

So I think I got the right point...yes?

Right back at ya!

I am not in as much pain as I used to be... I'm feeling much better after having a nice hot cup of reality to wake me up! I guess that's good!

(((((((((((((((((((JavaJane))))))))))))))))))))

Good Lawd lady! Wow! What an ordeal. You are an amazing woman to still be sane and in love with God after all of that. I am so glad that you found the Grease Spot rehab center and are also now reconciled with your family. I sure do love reading your posts. You have some great insight.

I would liken your situation (and many others) to this analogy. A slave had free will...he could either work like a dog from sun up to sun down every day of his short painful life, or he could try to run away and take the chance of getting shot in the back as well as condeming anyone that he left behind that he might have cared about to certain whipping and possible death. But there was always that slim chance that he would find an underground railroad or a sympathetic person and make it to the "free" North. Where he would find that although now free of physical chains he wore social ones. He had no real skill that could be used in the industrial North. He could not read or write and because of his skin color he could never truly escape the reality that everyone knew he had once been a slave. But he had free will, he could leave anytime he wanted if he was willing to accept the consequences.

love you all

Well, I can speak a little about the Corps because I was there for a little while.

Folks have free will in the Corps. But, a corps volunteer voluntarily decides to submit to someone else's orders while in training. The corps volunteer is under training to do what your superior tells you to do.

If you didn't agree with that, or couldn't agree with that after signing up, you had the free will to leave.

You had the free will to leave fellowships and classes.

So this concept is true of all twi activities, with the exceptions I offered above.

Hi Oldiesman

You and I have never conversed directly but I find your posts to be quite good at getting my mind to working. I do not often agree with you but you do make me think. As in this case. I do not remember this statement (bold type) ever being made to me or having it on the application or anywhere else for that matter. I was told that the Way Corps volunteer was going into training to become adept, learned and spiritually sharp leaders and ministers to God's people. One could argue that to accomplish this task one must take orders from their superiors, and they would be correct. But I was not in training to do what my superior told me to do. I was in training to learn the Word of God so that I could do what God told me to do. Once again it can be argued that in the Bible we are told to submit to our leaders in the Word. But they are not "superior" to me, they may be more learned, but not superior. Also they are only human and they make mistakes and I am biblically bound to only accept orders from them if they line up with the Word.

Most Way Corps did not go into the training program thinking that they were there to "follow their superiors orders". Most went in believing that they would be taught how to walk more spiritually so that they could hear God better and therefore follow his orders. This was the choice they made by their free will. But as someone pointed out once they got there things were not as they had been led to believe and leaving was a difficult choice for some and near impossible for others.

I am not trying to nit pic here, that comment just really rubbed me the wrong way and it is possible that it was not meant in the manner that I recieved it so please do not take offence.

love ya bro

Indeed! HAPPY MOTHERS DAY!! To every and all mothers out there!

And that was (and is) the purpose of the Inquisition: to provide that eccleastical court to deal with accusations.

I agree that this is the purpose of an inquisition, but I am not so certain that this was the purpose of the Spanish Inquisition. I think that it may have been initially introduced this way to sell the idea to the faithful but I think that the core reason was more political in nature than it was for the purity or defense of the church/faith.

Regardless of the group, if you don't agree with the doctrine of the group, then don't be a part of that group. Whatever you do, don't pretend to be a 'believer' and then work to undermine the core tenets of that group's beliefs...

Not to derail anything here but this is an awsome point! My mind automatically went to the many discussions that we have had on this board concerning folks that stayed or stay in TWI to try and change it, myself included. How fundimentally incorrect was that? (hypothetical) Hmmm...something more for me to think on.

You will be missed my dear. I enjoy reading your point of view. It is comendable that you dont want to "taint" GS with your own drama. I respect your decision although I do wish that you would stick around even if it's on the back burner.

Wherever you go, whatever you do, remember that you are loved and welcome here at the Spot.

love ya lots sis!

Eyesopen

Maybe you could help me write the story how I got the

Board of Trustees to payed for Corps.

I payed for the first year they paid the last.

You have a way with words.

Thank you Danny, it sounds like an interesting story. I will help if I can.

Some of those people whom Christ identified as children of the devil worried a great deal about insignificant portions of the law and left the weightier matters undone as in Matthew 23:23 & following and Luke 11:42 & following. Some of those verses seem to get back to what you said about God placing a high value on the intentions of the heart and not only being concerned with actions.

I think a lot of what God says about the conscience has to do with intent. Observe the verses from Romans 14 that T-Bone just posted. In verse 6 it clearly shows a correlation between intent (ie do this for the Lord not something else) and conscience. A similar correlation occurs in the Corinthians quote in verse 30 & 31. I am not certain of the exact significance but I am fairly sure there is one or God wouldn't have put it there.

You can take a person out of twi, but it’s kinda hard to take twi out of the person…not only that, twi isn’t “user friendly.” (Some of my weird thoughts for today).

That's the quote of the day to be certain! And aint it the truth! Couldn't I just be trailer trash Barbie trying to move on up?

Would our "sin nature" be affecting our conscience at all?

Just throwing that out there. I haven't made any sense on this thread anyway.

Actually you have made quite a bit of sense here on this thread and many others. In fact everyone here is making a lot of sense, I am really loving the communication in this particular thread. So everyone keep "throwing things out there".

Speaking of which...it seems that most here are in agreement that the conscience is some sort of regulator for what most call 'morals". The morals being those things that we through outside sources consisting of people, books, school, film etc., decide are good or bad, right or wrong. In other words morals=personal laws to live by. Those morals are everchanging as we grow and learn and the world around us also grows and changes. If we cross or break one of those personal laws our conscience lets us know. It becomes our choice if we will listen or not. It also seems that we all agree that the conscience can be trained to be silent, or we can train ourselves to ignore it. And some people can write laws upon their conscience that make no sense to most of the worlds population or are contrary to that same population. Then there are those that can carterize their conscience so they feel nothing at all. (I have always wondered if these would be the children of the debil? Just a thought)

So now on to this question of our sin nature affecting our conscience...hmmm...I think that maybe the sin nature is the little debil that sits on one shoulder while the little angel is your learned conscience that sits on the other shoulder.

In grammar and spelling my light is usually turned to dimmer.

Mine just flickers a lot...

Can I be the person that says the light bulb was possessed? Oh can I Pleeeeze!

Ok....The lightbulb was possessed...it was a spiritual airport and had to be changed! It just wouldn't renew its mind no matter how many times I cast them nasty little debil sprits out!

Thanks Sudo, excellent bit of wit!

Cathy dear I'm with you on the whole "edit" thing! It just screams "She can't spell!"

Now you done and gone it. "They" are going to start calling us Druids..

Uh Oh! Does that mean that I have to go find a brown robe at the thrift shop??

Actually it is a good point. But I've found that point of balance in the middle of "hell" sometimes.

Me too...kinda uncomfortable...in a balanced sort of way...

Eyesopen: This is why while in TWI many supressed their natural "instinct" to fight or run, where an animal would not have any such inhibition when faced with such adversity.

I love that sentence! lol. Makes me think of times people came down hard on me. Growling or perhaps hissing would have been pretty satisfying!

I think that maybe a little clawing and biting would have been nice upon occasion as well.

Even in "normal" society we humans often supress our natural instinct to just slap the holy SH!T out of someone who is desperately asking for it. At least most of us do... :unsure:

So...humans have reasoning abilities beyond that of other animals. Humans know right from wrong again apart from other animals. But humans also have instincts like other animals. Although many humans do not use those instincts because they live in cities where life is more regulated and "sterile" and away from nature. I believe in the Druidic and Wiccan idea that man is more "balanced" when they live closer to nature. I believe that all this concrete, metal and blacktop somehow dampens mans natural instincts.

Anyway...what if the conscience is merely a more highly evolved part of our instinct? We as humans can change the parameters of our conscience to a large extent where our animal cousins can only change their fight or flight responses as they learn to trust or fear. Their instincts are governed by base emotions, like fear and base stimuli, like pain. Humans have many other more subtle things that help change the outlines of our conscience and instincts. This is why while in TWI many supressed their natural "instinct" to fight or run, where an animal would not have any such inhibition when faced with such adversity.

I think our conscience helps govern our abitity to discern right from wrong, but like Another Spot said it is not the source of the law, just the regulator.

Just thinking...

Edited 'cause I can't spell...

potty germs

Hehehehehehehehehe....potty germs....hehehehehehehehe

OMG I must be more tired than I thought....hehehehehehe