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Yup, I really am glad that now they have chocolate coated coffee beans. They taste a bunch better.

Well I may be showing my age but...I know who Good Seed is...have all their old stuff...I know who Tom Burke is...ditto on his stuff and I know who Dean Ellenwood is again on the "stuff". But the rest of 'em...not a clue.

Hi everyone...I'm coming into this discussion a bit late and am finding it quite interesting. Shifra welcome back to the Spot! This is quite the thread to open with. My thoughts on this particular section of post is this...agape as you described it (quite aptly I might add) probably does not have boundries simply because it is of God. But as you also say people do need boundries. I think that Jesus gave those boundries to man when he said: John 13:34, 35 NIV 34 A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. "As I have loved you..." this is both a guildline and a boundry. As T-bone pointed out Jesus Christ was not made of milk toast. He had teeth and he did bite. He did not allow people to walk on him and I am certain that his patience was stretched pretty thin at times. He loved people and sometimes that means telling them something that they would rather not hear. So in answer to the question "At what point does Agape step over the line into loving someone else MORE than one's self?" It never does. If it does then it is no longer agape because it is outside of "as I have loved you." Johniam- thanks for reminding me of that verse. Way to bring me back around. But here is a "amok" type of question, Is this a revision of the "Love your neighbor as yourself" or is it a different commandment? It does seem to be isolating "disciples" from the rest of humanity. Any thoughts? Anyone?

Welcome to the Spot Jacy! I am sorry but I have never heard of such a book. But I will see what I can find in a search. God bless

I look forward to any discussion on these points. I really love this thread! We can of course feel free to "amok" in here. :P

Hi JJ, according to der vey today I'm an oldtimer. I started hanging around wayfers and twigs in about '78. I took the class in '80. Went out WOW in '82 and stayed in Arkansas for a couple of years before going into the Corps in '85. All that is pretty generic. I was asked to depart the Corps in '87 and upon returning home I was asked to take over half of the state as an area coord. So I did. LCM never asked me to give him allegence even though we corresponded on a friend level for about 3 years after being kicked out of the Corps for being "possessed". After POP in '85 I questioned everything concerning doctrine, and I was in trouble quite a bit while in residence. I managed to stay mostly below the radar while on the WOW field on my interum until my loving WOW sis decided that she did not want to keep her commitment so instead of just leaving she decided to mess up everyones year and get me canned from the Corps as well. Anyway as I said I returned home in '87. Did the AC thing for a while, then when we got a new LC he abolished the AC positions cause "he could do it himself". So I ran a twig for a while until '90. My father, who was also in the ministry fell asleep and not one twigger (except from my twig) came to the eulogy or even called. I was done with their hypocrasy. It wasn't anything the ministry did as an organization that made me depart. It was the callous way that regular believers were treated by the local "leadership" that turned my back. My mom stayed in because she liked some of the folks and after dads passing she found that fellowship was a nice way to get out and still be a bit active, not so lonely feeling. But then my brother and his tc kicked mom out of fellowship because she would not disown me. (I know this order came from our LC, not from anyone higher) Well that just devestated mom and made me downright hostile. As I said it was the local leadership that made me walk away.

I know I am a little late to this discussion but here is a site that I use a lot to cross reference Greek words with how they were used in places besides the Bible. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/ It helps me to gain a better understanding of how a word was used. http://www.biblestudytools.net/Concordance...iveConcordance/

You are the very best Rainbow!!! Thank you sooooooo much, my little ears are in heaven and boy did I need to be calmed down. Got a little out of sorts today. Love you sis!!!!

Hey Wolf, TNX! See old dogs can be taught!! Hope I got that right.

Jean, ultimately all humans will fall short and disappoint so it is very smart to place your trust in God. It is true that some good things came out of my involvement with TWI as well. But as I said and I believe you have as well, those good things can be attributed to individuals and not the ministry as a whole (ultimately God takes the credit but I think you understand what I am saying). The milk is a great analogy to illustrate this phenomena. As it isn't all sour. And not everyone that shops at the same store will come away with sour milk. A different day of the week or a different supervisor or any number of variables will change the outcome. But the bottom line remains the same. The store is responsible to provide what it advertises. If the store feels that the product is faulty then they talk to the dairy and so on. But the store still bears a certain amount of responsibility. In similar fashion the ministry advertised several products. They delivered on a few of them. But it seemed that the deeper or more involved you became the less likely you were to recieve that for which you paid. Waysider, you have got some grandes huevos my friend! If someone were to yell in my face like that back in the day I probably would have obviously ignored them, hence making them angrier. Today I would just walk away. But I am a different person today. But dude! You stuck it out and got that AWSOME nametag! Mine didn't have the super cool Bible/Way tree/ Word over the world logo on it. Hmmmph....I knew I joined the wrong program! <_<

OMG!!! Do you mean to tell me that there really isn't a thought police? :o All this time I thought.... Just kidding... Great post Mark!

Ok Oldies, I think you are right perhaps "usurp" might be too strong a word, maybe "infringe" is more approprate. usurp - seize something without right: to use something without the right to do so usurp (v) seize, appropriate, take, take over, assume, commandeer, grab, arrogate OR infringe - disobey or disregard something: to fail to obey a law or regulation or observe the terms of an agreement - encroach on somebody's rights or property: to take over land, rights, privileges, or activities that belong to somebody else, especially in a minor or gradual way infringe (v) encroach on, intrude on, interfere with, impinge on, trespass, invade, overstep, disobey, disregard, breach, break, violate, contravene, transgress,... I'm liking the word "infringe" because I think that TWI was more about disregarding our free will than commandeering it. They encroached upon our lives. They used our love and caring against us. They turned our love for our fellow Christians into a vicous hook and our care for humanity into a sin that should be eradicated. Am I blaming them for something? You are darn right I am. I admit I fell for the fake "I love God" spiel that they vomitted like Linda Bl@ir. But I fell for it because I actually thought that what they were selling was something that they actually had. But they didn't. False advertisers is a nice way to put it. I am glad that your experience with TWI was not frought with any negetives. And I remember good times too. But those good times happened because of true Christians that really did love God and really did have the goods. Not because of the organization or the false ministers that led it. With TWI I think the more appropriate quote would be "You can catch more flys with honey than with vinegar." Everyone's Momma. Nietzsche was a great man but not everything makes you stronger.

Its the lips babe!!

Good point. I think that often a person's behavior will reflect their contrary beliefs, i.e. Martin Luther preaching against indulgences, and it often got them unwanted attention. But you are right the Inquisition was about maintaining Church doctrine and cleansing the church of heretics or unbelievers.

Have a beautiful day! Go and do something for yourself, pamper yourself...eat icecream! Yummmmm

I don't know about him, but I get it...wow all you did was start a "goodbye" thread and lookie what happened! I think they should make a smiley icon that just shakes his head 'cause this is where I would use it. Darlin' Free, I don't know you but I think that I would have liked to get to know you. Perhaps in the future you will return to GS and bless us all once again with your insight and presence. I wish you joy and love and in light of all of this I wish you peace. I love you sis, God Bless you and yours always.

Oh I don't know about that...a middle school can muster quite the bushel of drama just ask my 12 year old. The funny thing is that I can't keep up with the drama here any better than I can keep up with her drama...oh well. I just hope and pray that all of you, adults and children alike manage to work it all out before someone loses an eye. 'Cause God loves you and so do I :)

So good to have another person that fits in here at the Spot! I really love your postings JJ. I even copied and save a few of them for further review...hope you don't mind. Like my profile says, I love to study and the thought processes of other folks sometimes sends me in directions that I would never have thought of on my own. Love ya sis :) Oh boy....You aint just a whistling Dixie here baby!! :wacko:

Thank you WW. I was actually "hoping" that I had misunderstood him. But I guess I did not. I suppose that what I misunderstood was the commitment that I was making when I volunteered for the Way Corps. I honestly thought that I was making a committment to God and in my heart I was, it was the Way Corps that didn't live up to its billing. They were supposed to help me keep my commitment to God; not userp it. For years I have felt like I had failed because I never completed that 4 year tour of duty. I have condemned myself for "breaking my commitment to God". But that's just it isn't it? My commitment was to God, not to man. I left TWI behind; not God. My commitment to Him remains and I continue to honor it and keep it. So I guess I didn't fail...funny how it took me the better part of 20 years to figure that out. <_< Hmmm...all of this belongs in the "Conscience" thread I think. Perhaps not; as the "hook" that kept me in TWI for so long was many barbed. The biggest barb was the line "breaking your commitment to God". I could pull away only so far before someone said that and I would clench my teeth around that hook and swallow it just a bit deeper. One just couldn't go home and admit that you were a failure in God's eyes, because you broke a commitment. There was just too much shame involved. We always have a choice, just sometimes our choices aren't what we would like. It kind of boils down to the consequences or benefits that come with the choice. Sometimes they are hard to make, kind of like our Presidential choices...oops did I say that? :huh: :P

You are absolutely correct in this matter. Any organization has the right to write its own rule book and expect members to follow it. They have every right to deny membership based on that rule book and the adherence to it. I think most organizations have some written law or tenent that is applied when a member is suspected or accused of subterfuge. I certainly didn't like the way that the Catholic Church handled the Inquisition but then again I didn't like the way the residents of Salem handled the witch trials either or Hitler's cleansing of Germany. But it happened and it is history. We can either learn from it or ignore it. Well I don't have a clue as to why this post ended up like this but my stuff is in red...now it is anyway... I'm going to bed...night all

I agree. He has either been here or he comes by regularly. Probably never posts anything that would draw attention. But reads a lot.

That is a very good question Mark. In Siouxzahn's first post she made this quote: "Supposedly only about 3000-5000 were actually put to death through the Spanish Inquisition specifically, and for that relatively small number Spain and the Spanish (Catholic) Church want to be better thought of than they have been, since during the same time period, some 150,000 were put to death across Europe for heresy and witchcraft...." So I wonder how many of those 150,000 are still attributed to the "Spanish" Inquisition? So often I hear of the Spanish Inquisition and the heresy trials and the witchcraft trials of Europe all spoken of in the same breath as if they were all part of the one i.e. the Spanish Inquisition. Obviously some of the other "trials" took place in Spain, but all of them cannot and should not be placed at the feet of the Spanish. Hmmmm....time to do some research. love ya

No, I was referring to the doctrines. Not at all referring to trying to change a person. That is a tough one and they have to want to change themselves. You can only help them if they want it. So I think I got the right point...yes?

(((((((((((((((((((JavaJane)))))))))))))))))))) Good Lawd lady! Wow! What an ordeal. You are an amazing woman to still be sane and in love with God after all of that. I am so glad that you found the Grease Spot rehab center and are also now reconciled with your family. I sure do love reading your posts. You have some great insight. I would liken your situation (and many others) to this analogy. A slave had free will...he could either work like a dog from sun up to sun down every day of his short painful life, or he could try to run away and take the chance of getting shot in the back as well as condeming anyone that he left behind that he might have cared about to certain whipping and possible death. But there was always that slim chance that he would find an underground railroad or a sympathetic person and make it to the "free" North. Where he would find that although now free of physical chains he wore social ones. He had no real skill that could be used in the industrial North. He could not read or write and because of his skin color he could never truly escape the reality that everyone knew he had once been a slave. But he had free will, he could leave anytime he wanted if he was willing to accept the consequences. love you all