Eyesopen

I don’t recall in 21 yrs in twi ever being taught the law defines sin. I can’t state unequivocally I wasn’t, but I sure don’t remember it. I surely never understood it that way. Certainly the phrase “not under the law” was bandied about almost as often as “speak in tongues” (at the twig level at least). Taken out of context as a stand alone, blanket phrase, it sounds like I can disregard the law in it’s entirety as not relevant.

For me personally, I don’t mind the 7 administrations as marking time. But, to understand it as chopping up the Bible into 7 pieces where one piece applies to me and the rest doesn’t, makes it a bit hard to understand some things and leads me to false conclusions. Now I look at it as one continuous thing, with some things starting at times, some things changing at times, and others remaining the same.

Well that’s my thoughts on this subject. What do you guys think?

I also don't recall being taught that the law defined sin. Although I am not certain that this is always the case. It certainly is in the majority of places that I have seen. However, the laws that were given to the Levites concerning the "forms" that needed to be observed for example when they prepared an animal sacrifice. I am not certain that breaking any of those would have been considered a "sin" in the same manner that sleeping with your neighbors wife is considered a sin.

I totally agree about the prevailing attitude that the law was to be disregarded in favor of grace. More than once I heard "We can do anything because we're not under the law but under grace!" This was often quoted when one wanted to get drunk, do drugs or participate in promiscuous sex.

As for the administrations...I really didn't like the way that VP cut it up (it was of course Bullingers work originally). It was much too restrictive. I look at the bible as a flowing thing with all things relating to other things.

Thank you "Sir" for answering my question about life after death. I had some more questions but so did others. Perhaps another time. It was a pleasure speaking with you.

Love ya lots!

P.S. "Have a good death" (how do you say that in Gaelic?)

Now, if it's not too much trouble for you could you cite the section in Romans that you're referring to and maybe a brief explanation of how you understand it?

I could be incorrect but I believe that she was refering to Romans 6, 7 & 8. The three chapters should be read together to get the full context of "sin nature" and "corruption of the flesh".

If I am wrong Spot please correct me.

You are absolutely correct that VP's teaching concerning all sins being equally bad in God's eyes was incorrect. There are degrees of sin and hence degrees of punishment or consequences. I am curious which verse you found in the OT that corroberates this standing.

Love you sis and bros!

Well, yeah like I said -- I can see how others might make that conclusion. However, since at this point I don't draw the same conclusion I can't say he "succeeded in saying" that. I suppose, if that's what I really wanted to believe he meant it might be easier.

I have a transcript of the class. I'll check it out for you.

Steve, just reading the short blurbs was fascinating. Congrats on your book. Just ordered it from my local B&N bookstore here in Hickory and Eyesopen, let me know when you get your book published.

I will Thomas. :)

Aren't we supposed to "know"?

:)

DrWearWord at your service...

Glad I found you all...

Peace with God

I'm glad you found us as well! Of course we all "know that we know" but upon occasion we do run amok! But we never say "I think" (Well maybe sometimes)

Welcome to the Spot. I look forward to having some stimulating discussion with you.

So I don't derail another thread - anybody out there have examples of Takit music? It was before my time, and I'm curious.

Thanks!

I have some Takit stuff and a bunch of other stuff as well. So does Rainbowsgirl (I got a lot from her) and Pawtucket has some as well.

EyesOpen:

I just HAVE to get your book now. It intrigues me you research independently. PLEASE let me know when it is published.

I absolutely will let you know. ;)

<<< If his eyes start following you around the room, you know you're in trouble..

I must be in trouble then...

Eagle- Thanks for the advice and info. I may have to go the self publish route anyway as my topic...well lets just say "contraversy" is puting it lightly. Got myself a friend that is a professional artist that is doing the cover art for me. As soon as it comes back I will begin the publishing process. I will look into some publishing companies first. I have to wait anyway, might as well learn something.

Just for the record for any VP enthusiasts out there that may be reading this, my book will absolutely contradict everything and I do mean everything ole Vic and good ole boy Loy had to say on the subject. I didn't plan it that way but I would rather contradict man than God so I'm sticking by my research. But that's all I'm gonna say for now.

You are correct in that is what God told EVE. But was it intended for all women or just her? Some would say it was never meant to have been for all women. In Judaism it is said it was Eve's punishment and it was passed down. Then throughout Genesis various women began the process of undoing that "punishment". Abraham was told to listen to Sarah. Rebecca knew who the true heir was supposed to be, etc.

Alright here's my amok for the day...part of the punishment must have been passed down from Eve to othe women because women still have pain while giving birth.

EyesOpen:

Thanks so much! You must have a copy of the book. The book being long, detailed and exhaustive, you need a bookmark.

The purpose of that was that while I was with TWI, we were always told to "Chapter and Verse" everything, thus 10 pages of scripture index used in a book 557 pages long. Also needed was history, archeology and chronology of texts used in the chapters, 10 more pages of subject index. References, notes, and illustrations took another 10 pages.

Problem was, even after all that, I was accused of "not using the Word". I kid you not. I have to assume they meant the Word as brought forth by VPW.

I hope you enjoy the rest of the book! God Bless!

Eagle

I do have a copy and it is really good! But I will delay any comments or questions on the content until I have finished it. :)

Howerver, I would like to know who did your cover art? It is quite clever. Did you get an artist to do it or did the publishing company do it? One other question did you self publish or were you picked up by a publisher? I only ask because I also have a book ready to publish and am still making that very important decision of how to publish.

One thing that can be said for TWI, regardless of methods we were expected to do in depth research. What happened afterwards was often "unfortunate" (yes I am being kind) but if a person had half a brain in their head they quickly realized that researching the Bible was much more labor intensive than simply looking words up in a Lexicon or Concordance and making certain that you quoted everything VP had to say on the subject. "Making it your own" did not mean listening to the SNS tape five times. Your work is very good, you would be a credit to any "group". I am glad you spend some of your time with us. I look forward to finishing your book!

Love ya bro.

Eyes

Joe,

It was wonderful talking to you again. You took me back a few years. I dont speak to any of the TWI folks here in Reno that I knew back then.

I am glad that you are satisfied and comfortable with your religious choices. You sound happy and content. And this is a good thing.

God Bless you Joe,

Teresa

This is the first I've heard of your book. Can you give me a general idea of what it covers? I've been called a heretic enough times for it not to bother me much, so if I were you I would probably shrug it off (as others have said).

Jean- click on the link above. His website gives a synopsis and some exerpts.

Eagle, what I have read of it is very good. I have yet been able to sit down and just read it but what I have read do not seem heretical to me. But then again I don't have "Way brain" anymore either. Found a cure for that problem.

Love ya bro.

This is absolutely wonderful news! We had a big push for it here in Reno. One of our own was resting under a marker that did not have an inscription identifying his faith. But recently it was added and there was a big ceremony with many denominations present. It really was beautiful.

I have always fervently believed that if these men and women are willing to die to protect our freedoms, including freedom of religion then they should be honored by having freedom of religion. How can one be expected to fight for a freedom that is not extended to them completely?

Just my opinion.

Take what you want! I'm giving it out for free!!

As for the question of the Bible denegrading women... I think most of the denegrading can be tied into the culture of the time and not the specifically the commandments given to them by God. Since the Bible was edited by MALES and MEN were the ones who put together the final canon, I think we can be assured that at least SOME of their male-dominated society viewpoints crept in to what was seleceted and what wasn't...

I would love to spend some time reading some of the other books that were rejected from the final cut - it would be interesting what was considered as holy writings prior to that editing process.

Was it the Counsel of Nicea where that canon was set? I can't remember... but that specific Counsel, if not all of them had a definite political agenda as well as a spiritual one!

I think that is quite right the men made the rules and organized the Bible so the oppressive culture probably did slip into the translations of the Bible.

It was the Council of Nicaea that the books were voted on. I am looking for the link that states the Canons that came out of it. But here is a link to the Council of Elvira where the Church decided on all sorts of ways to degrade, segregate and made different rules and punishments for women.

http://faculty.cua.edu/pennington/Canon%20...lviraCanons.htm

I posted some other links back on page 3 I think that will take you to a website that would link you to the Gospel of Mary. I will try and find the others.

Here's the First Council of Nicaea page.

http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum01.htm

Didnt three mean complete?? Too funny.

I guess VP figured that meant complete idiot or completely possessed but it really meant completely sick of hearing the sh!t!

Good point, Eyes!

As for the OT being viewed as history rather than the will of God in action - this makes a lot of sense to me... We can learn a lot from the history, but without the understanding of the culture of the time it just doesn't make a lot of sense...

Things like that are all over the place in our own history books. Without the understanding of social interactions and customs of the times, the reasons of wars, political upheavals, etc, don't make any sense, even a couple of hundred years ago. Or even looking at current events such as what is happening in foreign countries.

Just because culture dicates something doesn't mean it is right or wrong, or even God's will. There are some groups that believe it is God's will to kill their daughters in "honor killings" because they were kidnapped and possibly raped. They are not viewed as victims, but as bringing disgrace upon their families. You may not even be able to document this tradition in this culture's own holy books, but it still happens and is still viewed as God's will.

So many things are blamed/credited to God who probably had absolutely nothing to do with it. I think many of these records in the OT reflect this.

Someone in twi once said to me that the culture of the time was based on God's will, and by studying the "orientalisms" involved we could uncover the truth behind the culture... Makes it sound like we should all be living as they did in the OT then, doesn't it? I don't ascribe to this view. I think by understanding the culture we can better understand some of the records - but if the actions of the people mentioned in the history - if they are "good" or "evil" or just plain stupid - has to be judged on their own merits.

Was it accepted by culture in the OT to have multiple wives as king? yes. Was it accepted according to the law given by God? No. Deu 17:17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold. (in reference to the king.)

Obviously there were some who obeyed culture and not the Laws set out by God. (David, Solomon, to name a couple.) Just because these were "Men of God" doesn't mean that what they did was right in the sight of God.

We had the same problem in twi - we (ok, at least I) thought that everything the "MOG" did had to be right, even if it didn't make sense or line up with the what the Bible said...

Wow! I couldn't have said it better myself, hmmm...I didn't...but you did. Excellent post! Do you mind if I copy it for future reference? It's not like it would be the first one of your posts that I have copied. Hehe Between you and Abi and several others my file cabinet runneth over! But that's a good thing.

So if we are going to act upon the premise that the OT is mostly history and that not everything in reflects God's will then where does the question of the Bible denegrading women fit in?

Do you string your dining room chairs???

Is the arrangement in the center of the table perfectly arranged for maximum blessing?

That would be sooooo awsome if a woman won!!! And she is so very cool!

This is a great thread! I have tears threatening, but I'm at work so....

I've never seen the changing of the guard, but someday I will.

My father served as did all of my uncles, my grandfather and his brothers, my brothers...frankly every man in our family dating back several generations has served if even for a short term. My father's ashes still reside in my home, I thank him every day.

Tomorrow I will spend my day at work, recieving calls from soldiers in Iraq who are calling home to speak to their loved ones. I will joyfully transfer their calls. No I'm not an operator, just work in a guard unit with Security Forces. Transfering calls through our line here gives those overseas a little extra time to talk to their loved ones. So we do this for them, otherwise they get 15 minutes a day (if they can get to a phone) and that is it.

Perhaps this is where I could tell you of a young service man who got leave to return home to tend to his sick mother a few days ago. He arrived late in the afternoon, around 5 only to be told that his mother had passed the night before. They were unable to contact him because the flight that he had taken could not recieve a transfered call. (He flew commercial instead of Military).

Soldiers pay for our freedom with so much more than their lives...

Oh you are sooo lucky Eyes.

You my dear are the lucky one despite the trials by fire that you have endured. To find someone that you can honestly share your life with is for many a dream come true. It is what I believe to be the "full circle" of God's love.

Someday my dear sister we will have to share a cup of coffee together. We live fairly close to each other. Hmmm...food for thought.

love ya!

Does the Bible denigrate women?

I would say yes. I think that the second creation story, Gen ch 2, had that as a basic theme for a reason--so women would be under authority due to gender.

I dont think that Eve was placed "under" Adam so much as Adam was given the responsibility of Eve. Remember he is the one that denied any copability in the whole "apple" affair, and blamed it all on Eve. So then in the "fall" Adam was given a huge majority of the responsibility of his wife. If I remember correctly without going back some pages to find it, man was charged with the protection of the woman and if he died his sons were responsible for her. So it wasn't so much that woman was made lower than man but she was removed from the equation so man could not blame her for his own actions any more. That of course backfired because today Eve is blamed for the entire fall of man.

I was involved in a writing discussion once that took an interesting turn. If you had ( and could)to send your daughter 'back in time' to save her life, where and when would you send her?

OT times in the near east wasn't real popular.

Now that's an interesting idea. But if I think too hard on it I will "amok". So I will wait until I go home to do that.

OMG!!! That was a scarey video. I can't believe I sat through that boring dribble more than once.<_<

...more than once? The song comes immediatly to mind, "Wasted Days and Wasted Nights" What did VP teach about if a person is told something 3 times they should have it down or they are possessed or unwilling to listen. So now why did that not apply to being required to sit through every stinking class that came down the pipe every time it was within a 300 mile radius of your home?

You know when the MOG said, "How many times have you already been told this?" My answer was, "Once. Because if you have told me before I obviously didn't think you were worth listening to, and if you ask me again my answer will remain the same."

I remember asking my mother the very first time that I took the class as a teenager, "Mom, why does he keep repeating himself? Does he think we are all stupid?" She should have just said, "Yes"

Hmmmph!

well I am not sure the "guest rights" is an OT law so much as an OT custom. I will have to see if I can find anything one way or another on that.

I tend to view the OT history as just that, history. Not necessarily God's will, but what occured, often in the name of God - right or wrong. From that, we can learn much, but that doesn't mean everything that occured was what God willed.

It probably was a custom, but it is part of the "story" in more than one place and where in heavens name did they come up with the entire dingy idea in the first place?

I am beginning to really comprehend your viewpoint concerning the OT. The more that we pick at it even in the small sense of this thread the more it looks like mostly history, as you say of what occured not necessarily what God wanted to occure or how he wanted it to occure.

I just need to say for the record, "Thank you Abi for talking with me so much on this thread. Your insights have helped me to see many things in a fresh light. In short, doctrinal discussion with you is refreshing and enjoyable. I really hope that we can continue for as long as we want to, running amok and everything!"