Eyesopen

It makes sense to me Rascal! And it is a good thing that I like onions! 'Cause this is gonna take some time, doncha know...

I agree with that. I was more thinking about the ethics and morals of the law. Twi was sure a really strange blend of license and legalism. I think this one area has been the most difficult for me to sort out. I haven’t really gotten into the higher standards of the NT just yet. I have read some good posts on the subject. But by logic, a higher standard doesn’t discard the lower.

In the natural world the "higher" standard includes the "lower". The lower standard is expected behavior and the higher standard is the behavior that we must attain. Such as Police Officers are expected to keep all of the normal laws and to also attain the higher standard of being a leader in their own neighborhoods and always being the person that "helps" when things go wrong, etc.

In TWI the standards were a bit scewed. Those at the very top were not expected to adhere to any standard, but those below were expected to follow all the law. It was legalistic on the "leaf and branch" level but the laws became more lax the further you went up the ole Way tree.

The NT doesn't really have any higher standards. It has less law. It is fairly simple, at least as I see it. The two great commandments are to Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself on these two hang all the law and the prophets. I think that if a person just remembers to do these two in everything that they do then they will be fine. If we are doing something that involves believers (our neighbors) then remember to love them or treat them as you would wish to be loved or treated. Loving God at all times is the easy part. There is one other little rule that was thrown into the mix. It is in regards to our enemies. We are expected to be kind and not be judgemental of them either. Basically remember that it is God's job to dish out punishment.

My vote goes to the "Tino" album. What is that all about anyway!

I have got to ask where do you find these things?

I personally return here for several reasons. When I first started posting here I was confused, and angry and a bit apprehensive. But like many others the discussions that we engage in here at the Spot are revealing and enlightening and they help me to put the pieces back together. I don't always agree with some of the opinions or even the consensus conclusion, but they do help me figure out why I did what I did.

I still amazes me what we as members of the ministry did to ourselves in the name of our God or worse what we did to others in the name of our God. But understanding my willing participitation in my own "mistreatment" or the mistreatment of others helps me to understand what really happened to me and so many others. To realize that despite our ascertations that we were NOT involved in a cult we actually WERE involved in a cult, and we liked it (at least for a while). Some of us actually miss certain aspects of it (as attested to by many opinions expressed in various posts throughout GS).

But GS allows us to be heard by people that do understand us when we say, "I was out WOW..." or "In 19xx I joined the Corps..." or "It really bugged me to have to say 'Bless you' to everyone..." I could go on for days and we all know it. I mean who else in the world begins a bitcx letter to the Power Company by saying "God Bless you in the glorious name of Jesus Christ"? Seriously we really were just a bit over the edge. Here at GS we can laugh about that and cry as well. We can scream and kick our feet like two year olds if that is what we need to do, and someone will step up and laugh with you or hand you a hankie. Someone will be the sister or brother that God expects them to be and we will in turn do the same for someone else down the road. It is a family that we all belong to. Disagreements arise and often harsh words are spoken, but in the end if a person truly desires to grow beyond that which we all were in TWI then healing can take place and people can move on with their lives. But why leave GS behind when we do? It is here that we finally find a semblence of the family that we once were looking for when we went off to follow ole Vic or his teachings.

That is why I am here, I am still putting the pieces back together. My life is still pretty patchy and there are times when I will react to something using "Way brain". But I am healing and coming to a better understanding of myself, of where I have been, what I have done and where I want to be and what I want to do when I get there. But all in all there are many here on GS that I want to be there (even in cyberspace) when I reach my destination so they can share with me the fulfillment of a goal. So we as a family can share in each others triumphs, just as we have shared in each others pain.

Just my opinion...

To those of us who left twi in the 70s and 80s,

it's ludicrous and ridiculous to see where things went eventually.

After reading your very powerful post and then reading the "rest of the story" from JJ, this quote expresses exactly how I feel. What the Fxxk happened? It is fruitless for me to even try to ferret out what happened to the ministry that I once loved so much. It saddens me beyond belief to realize just how far from God it was allowed and at times forced to stray. It sickens me when I think of all the wonderful, beautiful men and women that were hurt first by VP then by LCM and then by the ministry that claimed to be both Godly and of God. The incredibly incorrect teaching and instruction that so many people received is mind numbing. The fact that this Godly ministry had the audacity to treat God's children in such a deplorible manner and tell them that what and how they were doing it was Godly...it just makes me nauseous. In one way it makes me long intently for the Judgement Day and I am fairly certain that that is not a proper "renewed mind" Godly thought. But a stray thought here and there wont kill me.

Oh and as I recall, VPW said when Jesus Christ comes back they won't be calling him a "Jesus Chirst so-and-so" When he comes back he's coming back as King of King and Lord of Lord's and Lord God Almighty. And he's gonna knock some earballs together."

Oh Dooj darlin' did you have to quote him? Now his voice is resounding in my skull...ohhhh I'm getting a headache!

Temple lady-did they really teach you that there was a Debil Sprit named Jesus? I remember being taught not to pray to him cause that was idolatry. And I remember being taught that we had to say Jesus Christ or Christ Jesus because just saying Jesus kept him in his "man" state and he had ascended beyond that.

TWI liked to drop Jesus Christ's name here and there to make sure they were still Christian, but they really lost the whole deal with the absent Christ doctrine. How can you have an absent head??

I dont know call me stupid but VP usually thought with the other head anyway so what difference did it matter to him?

It truly was the remainder of the household, us little wayfers that missed out with twi's "absent Christ" doctrine because it left us with VP as the head. It certainly gives a different spin on "pecker head". <_<

Happy Birthday Bowtwi! Do something special and make it a memorable day!

God Bless you!

David is one of the leading bibliographers of the Jesus Movement in the late 60's. He was there when it began and knew the major players from Lonnie Frisbee to Steve Heefner. He will be talking about that time and how VP Wierwille showed up during that time.

I'm excited about hearing what happened during this time.

The show will start at 5pm eastern time and there will be a question and answer time.

Im excited! I will be there although probably late again. I don't get off of work until 2 pm PST i.e. 5 pm EST. Sometimes I get off earlier but I don't count on it. Save me a seat!

I believe that the bible teaches that he is the head of the body...making intercession for the saints, directing the paths of those who follow him and know him...

Where does he live?...He's seated at the right hand of God...perhaps the real question should be, where does God live?...because they have the same address.

...or perhaps God is absent too?

Excellent point Groucho. So simple yet so important to remember!

I remember sitting through hours of the CF&S class AFTER having anticipated taking it, getting the $$$ together, paying for it, then its finally here. Yay! Then I was APPALLED by the look of his face and the tone of his voice when he "taught" us slang terms for male & female private parts! I wanted to SLAP his face when he told us Mrs. VPW's preference in the position and method he used having SEX!!!!???? AND. Then, FINALLY, the moment came when he in his very VPW way exclaimed that THE original sin - - THE thing that Eve did in the Garden of Eden - the thing that the serpent beguiled her to do - the thing she convinced Adam to do.... (drumroll....) was...

MASTURBATE!!!!

I was like,

WHAT?

You put me through all of that absolute crap to tell me, we, the whole human race were separated from God because Adam pulled his pud!????!?!!!!?????

First of all there's not a man alive that anyone would have to coerce to do that.

SO. When I think of things to be mad at VP about, his lifting other people's work is not the highest thing on my personal list. Its not that I don't care about it, I do. Its just that it doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me at this point.

ROFLOL and gonna .... my pants!!! OMG!!! Did that bring back memories or what????!!!!! That was absolutely hysterical!! Thanks!

Oakspear, you're only confirming (in hindsight) what I thought in foresight concerning my observation that many members of TWI put VP on a pedestal. I sometimes wondered how much they were paying attention to what VP said in PFAL. Seemed they only heard what they wanted or needed to hear and not much more.

I know that this is a response for Oakspear but I just have to comment here...I don't look at this response as "placing VP on a pedestal". I know that many people did. I however did not. I simply expected the man that presumed to "teach" me a subject to actually be qualified to do so. I found out many years later as others did that his so called education was "slip shod" at best. But then I thought "surely he actually studied the Word so that he could teach it to others" (being self taught is not a crime). But this is not true either. So what is the truth? VP pretended to be an educated man that conducted his own research (sometimes with the input of others) so that he could teach others. But none of that actually happened. He wasn't on any pedestal so to speak for me, he was simply expected to live up to his own billing.

When he didn't match up I dismissed him as I would any other false teacher. (Had he attempted this flim flam at a University can you imagine the fallout?) Meanwhile most of us have had to go back and reexamine everything that he taught us and try to make sense of it. Certainly there was some truth in what he taught us be it someone elses work originally or not, but with it all mixed up together with the bad...well sometimes it is just easier to call it all crap and start with a clean slate as Rascal pointed out in another thread. One good thing that I pulled out of pfal was that I learned that it is possible to study the bible. Using his principals or not, it is available. So now I can and do actually study for myself and sometimes teach others.

That was very very funny, Thank you I needed a laugh.

Perhaps you didn't notice that Eyesopen has already "opened my eyes" (is that a close proximity to plagiarism? :)) on this subject.

Hahahahahaha...wait a minute...am I supposed to call my lawyer now? Ahhh to heck with it...that was funny...I don't care who you are!

Anyone else had similiar thoughts or know more about this covenant theology thing?

Funny I've been thinking about this recently. I don't know anything about a specific covenant theology but I am coming to the conclusion that Romans 10:9, 10 is as you say only the beginning of a journey. I think that it does ensure that a person escapes the "wrath" but it does not guarantee that a person will be allowed access to the kingdom of heaven.

From what I can figure, access to the kingdom requires faithful service to God. Almost like works but not works. Works cannot make a person righteous only God can do that but works as a faithful servant or child can garner favor. Similar to a child that cleans his room everyday. His parents are more likely to allow him to go to the movies with his friends than the child that doesn't do anything. (Simple analogy) We are His children, if we wish to go out and play in this life and beyond then we need to be obedient to His word and His will.

The part about it being a contract I think is a good analogy. We are adopted children. He adopted us but we also adopted Him. It was mutual, we both needed each other, and we both made a contract with each other. God has promised not to break His side of the agreement, we need to do the same. Then we both, us and God need to keep our word.

What Rascal said is also correct. There are those that think that God made a contract with them and He did not. So they will not be welcomed into the family when all is said and done.

Those are some of my thoughts on the subject.

Well,now, let's see here.

God told VP that He,God, would teach him stuff nobody had seen for 1,000s of years.

Just to be on the safe side, though, maybe we better have the legal dept. check to make sure he didn't make this same promise to someone else. <_<

Hahahahaha..Awwwhahahahahahaha

In case you didn’t know, he wasn’t a man of God. He was a man of grapes…it’s important to be right about the details.

Awwwhahahaha..snort, snort ahahahahahaha...quite it you guys I'm gonna pee my pants! Hahahahaha

My copy of JCOPS is dated 1982. I must have my copy of JCOP packed away. My copy of JCING is dated 1975. I believe all of my books (of that nature) were first editions.

I think you're probably right about David's repentance having something to do with it. Perhaps it has more to do with demonstrating the depths of God's love and forgiveness than David's repentance.

P.S. Ok I found JCOP. It's dated 1980

Mine are still considered first edition just not first impression, point is they should all (yours and mine) have the same exact material in them.

As far as David goes perhaps it is a bit of both and maybe more. But God's forgiveness, even in the OT was dependant upon asking forgiveness. So to recieve His forgiveness David had to repent. Repenting meant that David was willing to return to God's favor and to do God's will. This would perhaps cause God to find that David's story was worth recording so that many generations could learn from David's mistakes and triumphs but mostly of his meekness and God's willingness to forgive even the worst of crimes if a person were to make themselves humble before Him.

I remember a really bizarre teaching I heard in TWI about women and the Church. It was in the mid to late 90s, and I can't remeber who taught it, except it was a high mucka muck, not in the fellowship. Maybe LCM on some delusional rant.

Anyway, homosexuality was rampant in the early days of the Church(so the story went) in Rome. Women wanted to have sex with their husbands and have babies, but the husbands were all busy doing other men. They got tired of hearing the women and having the women try to run things, so there was a back lash against women...sex with women became 'dirty'...

I kid you not I heard this taught. I remember at the time thinking--homosexuality must be like a virus...

Wow that is bizarre! I often wondered how TWI managed to finally screw up the truth of Romans 1. Now I know. Thanks Bramble. :)

My books predate those years.

Curiosity...what dates are on your books?

Yes, I concur. David, I believe, repented. Funny though, that despite their screw-ups God still loved them even though He allowed to let their screw-ups be recorded.

Very true, David's misdeeds were recorded for all to see. Perhaps this is so because he repented.

That's an interesting wonderment. I wonder if his "gift for drawing people" is something God gave him. I've read where some religious people think that even singing or writing or etc., etc., etc. are gifts from God. If God gave VP a "gift" -- I think it's called charisma -- then you have to wonder -- Why would God give such a man a gift like that if the end result was he was going to use it to deceive so many?

There are several examples in the Bible where God gave someone a special gift or calling and it was misused and ultimately hurt many of God's people. Hmmmm...David comes to mind.

Doesn't Wierwille actually say in at least one of the books that it was a great big collaborative work, but in the end the contents are his responsibility? He's telling you how the book came about. Anyone have that? I'm pretty sure it's either JCOP or JCOPS.

You are simplifying but I found two such acknowledgements one in each of JCOP and one in JCOPS. Here is an exerpt from each:

JCOP:

"Many dedicated people have assisted me in the preparation and publication of this book, a project which I have worked on periodically for two decades. However, in the early 1970's, I solicited the cooperation of Walter J. Cummins, Chairman of our Research department, to check my research thoroughly and critically concerning all the Gospel records starting with six days before the death of Jesus Christ to the day of Pentecost." ....

VP continues by citing the various manuscripts and he specifically names these people as having assisted in the work:

"Walter J. Cummins in Greek, Bernita Jess and Gary R. Curtis in Aramaic, Bo Reahard in Eastern customs, John Crouch in figures of speech, Chip Stansbury in history and documentation, and Michele C. Curtis in organizing and editing the material. Donna Randal, my research secretary for many years, helped immeasurably in evaluating the material and contirbuting to it. Karen W. Martin, my daughter, took primary responsibility for the editing of the manuscript. Rhoda Becker Wierwill, assisted by Joyce Ziegler, Marian Moczydlowski, and others in The Way International's Word Processing department, typed and retyped the manuscript ... Rosalie Rivenbark, Tom Plain and the staff..finalized the manuscript for publication. As is evident, this book is truly the result of a large team effort with years of research, study, checking, and rechecking. Others besides those named above have been consulted and have assisted in the production of this work."

JCOPS:

"This book Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed came into concretion with the assistance of the scholarship of a group of qualified research men and women. In August of 1979 a research team, consisting of Walter J. Cummins, John Crouch, Gary R. Curtis, Michele C. Curtis, Bernita Jess, Karen W. Martin, Donna Randall, Bo Rheahard, and Chip Stansbury, joined me in considering my original research work on the birth of Christ....Karen Wierwille Martin, along with Michele C. Curtis, reworked the research manuscript for its structure and clarity of communication. The manuscript in its numerous drafts was tirelessly retyped by our Word Processing department under the supervision of Joann Herman. Camille Kavasansky and Babara Geer proofread the manuscript...Tom Plain prepared the copy for publicationn...Rosalie F. Rivenbark oversaw production...Emogene Allen prepared (it) for marketing."

These are of course "exerpts" as I do not feel like typing it all out. I am sure that I put in enough of the "acknowledgement" to corroberate Raf's memory. My books are dated JCOP "fourth impression 1981" and JCOPS "second impression 1983".

Larry, I do not know what you might be looking at but perhaps you simply don't have the correct "impression".

love ya

I was reading something the other day that talked about how Eve is called the mother of all living but Adam is not referred to as the father. It also talked about the women behind the patriarchs. How the men got most of the glory, but if you read the text without the Christian mind set you will realize not one of those men would have earned their fame without the wives who stood by their side.

As I recall Eve means "mother of nations" or something like that and Adam merely means "man".

It would also be hard to live the weird submissive way of TWI of the 90s or some other groups, where all decisions are taken to the husband etc. I would think that is a product of our modern times and affluence--a hundred years ago those farmers would be up before dawn, working until late...no time to check a 15 min schedule.

Way good "amok"!

I think also the idea of allowing others to raise your children is a product of the times. There have always been those that required nannies, like royalty and the very affluent. But for average folks to engage a nanny or daycare was at one time an unheard of practice.

You can own a TV because it is not a window for the Adversary.

You no longer feel compelled to say "Bless you" to everyone.

I had done a search on “death” + “sin” and encountered this:

Deu 21:22¶And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

I hadn’t thought about it before, but obviously from this verse, some sins are worse than others. (Eyesopen, this is it) I’m sure you guys remember different sins had different consequences. That by itself is proof enough that no degree of sin is not right.

Returning to “the greatest sin” it would be more accurate to say some things reflect a greater lack of love for God and one’s neighbor than others.

Absolutely! No argument there. Adultery would be more of a lack of love (and respect) for your neighbor where idolatry would be a lack of love for God. Well put!