Eyesopen

Can't say that I disagree with this opinion. But he asked a question so I just answered it as best I could.

That's hella cool Oak! I am assuming that these weddings are considered legal by the state? Good job doing the JW wedding, shows a lot of love for people.

Really? I don't know about any "impact", perhaps after I had left it did. I never really thought about it, probably because I never read the book. Whatever... So as far as a critical examination...I have never heard of one. But I don't own everything, so it is possible. Correct me if I am wrong, that particular book was done after they had cancelled or were going to cancel the Bible lands tours. And I believe they used the material from the tours as a basis for the book. I am not certain about this, perhaps someone that was at HQ or close to it at the time could give you more info. Anyway perhaps what you are looking for would be in that material?

Congratulations!! I know it is a good feeling to accomplish something like this. On to bigger and brighter things. God Bless you

My prayers are also with you! (((((((((((((((((((mo))))))))))))))))))) God Bless you dear!

Outstanding post AJern! Well said and welcome to the Spot! Sit back relax...you are now in the real world and allowed to do that without permission or filling out a report on your "free" time. Have some coffee, have a danish and just read anything and everything you want! Love ya bro! Oh and Jean that really wasn't very nice dear.

More times than I want to count I have asked myself this question. I know that there were those in the ministry that were Godly people. But was the ministry itself based upon God or Godly principals? I think VP answered that question himself, when he taught that a building built upon the sand would not stand but a building built upon the Rock that is Jesus Christ would stand forever. TWI is in its death throws hence it was built on sand...

I got: Outcome A - The Human. Based on the descriptions you chose, you are practical, reliable, friendly, and fit in with people quite nicely. You probably have a regular family and do well in acedemia. Accurate?

Sushi-This is late but no less felt...I hope that your birthday was the best ever and next years is better yet!

Absolutely Larry, I loved that I had finally been taught that God did not in fact live in an edifice made by man. That I could actually talk to Him because I was His daughter and that He would not only listen but would also answer me. I loved that I was no longer restricted in my relationship with God. Despite all of TWI's many restrictions and laws they did teach me that a personal relationship with God is just that "personal" and no one no matter how much they belittled you, berrated you, condemned you or otherwise were a pain in your lilly white a@@ they could not effect or alter your personal walk unless you let them. It was in many ways a liberating experience, at least in that department. I was of course willingly constrained in other areas, but that was mostly because I thought that I could help others to achieve the freedom that I had through the teachings of this ministry. So yes I did love the ministry in many ways and I truly don't think there is anything wrong with the way that I once felt. Nor would it be wrong today had the ministry not gotten or been so wacked in so many ways. The atrocities that were committed in the name of the God that I love so deeply, as I said, sickens me. But the fact that it was the people and yes some of the teachings of TWI that allowed me to develope that relationship with God is not in anyway belittled by the horrors that were committed. There are several other things that I loved about the ministry. I loved it when I found out that it was possible to actually study the Bible and not get struck by lightning if I did. I loved that I could be a part of a family of other people that loved God as much as I. I loved that worshipping God was actually fun and not a mundane or constraining thing. I loved the early years "get togethers" like ROA and Limb meetings where everyone came to have fun and bless (yes I said "bless") each other. I loved that I learned how to pray without being selfish. I loved that I learned how to love others outside of my immediate family without asking for anything in return. I love that I can still do that today and not have to even think about it. I could go on and on, but I think you get the point. Sure there are a lot of things that I really dislike about my time in TWI. For instance it seriously pains me everyday that I by my complicity allowed others to be harmed by members of TWI. It makes me nauseuos to think that wonderful women of God that had beautiful gentle hearts were raped by the man that I thought I was learning God's word from. It grieves me to the core of my everlasting soul to think that I may have been in a position at any given time to help even one of them and I probably would not have notice or didn't notice. Do not think or entertain for one second the thought that I in any way intend or desire to belittle the pain, anguish and overall mistreatment of even one of my beloved brothers or sisters at the hands of anyone associated with TWI. If there were any way that I could remove it all from every single one of them and take it upon myself, I would without a moments hesitation. But I cannot, so instead I offer to anyone my help, such as it is. In contrast, I also do not belittle the good that I was able to gleen from my experience. For with what I learned perhaps I can in some way help someone who was not so lucky. Any questions?

I actually remember when these scientists were still gathering the information for thier museum. I was asked to donate to help put it up. I didn't have the money at the time but I did consider it, if for nothing more than allowing people to see a different point of view. I give them credit they have the huevos to put their research and beliefs on display for anyone to consider. I would like to see the finished product in the near future.

'Cause we like onions? I really like blooming onions!

It makes sense to me Rascal! And it is a good thing that I like onions! 'Cause this is gonna take some time, doncha know...

In the natural world the "higher" standard includes the "lower". The lower standard is expected behavior and the higher standard is the behavior that we must attain. Such as Police Officers are expected to keep all of the normal laws and to also attain the higher standard of being a leader in their own neighborhoods and always being the person that "helps" when things go wrong, etc. In TWI the standards were a bit scewed. Those at the very top were not expected to adhere to any standard, but those below were expected to follow all the law. It was legalistic on the "leaf and branch" level but the laws became more lax the further you went up the ole Way tree. The NT doesn't really have any higher standards. It has less law. It is fairly simple, at least as I see it. The two great commandments are to Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself on these two hang all the law and the prophets. I think that if a person just remembers to do these two in everything that they do then they will be fine. If we are doing something that involves believers (our neighbors) then remember to love them or treat them as you would wish to be loved or treated. Loving God at all times is the easy part. There is one other little rule that was thrown into the mix. It is in regards to our enemies. We are expected to be kind and not be judgemental of them either. Basically remember that it is God's job to dish out punishment.

My vote goes to the "Tino" album. What is that all about anyway! I have got to ask where do you find these things?

I personally return here for several reasons. When I first started posting here I was confused, and angry and a bit apprehensive. But like many others the discussions that we engage in here at the Spot are revealing and enlightening and they help me to put the pieces back together. I don't always agree with some of the opinions or even the consensus conclusion, but they do help me figure out why I did what I did. I still amazes me what we as members of the ministry did to ourselves in the name of our God or worse what we did to others in the name of our God. But understanding my willing participitation in my own "mistreatment" or the mistreatment of others helps me to understand what really happened to me and so many others. To realize that despite our ascertations that we were NOT involved in a cult we actually WERE involved in a cult, and we liked it (at least for a while). Some of us actually miss certain aspects of it (as attested to by many opinions expressed in various posts throughout GS). But GS allows us to be heard by people that do understand us when we say, "I was out WOW..." or "In 19xx I joined the Corps..." or "It really bugged me to have to say 'Bless you' to everyone..." I could go on for days and we all know it. I mean who else in the world begins a bitcx letter to the Power Company by saying "God Bless you in the glorious name of Jesus Christ"? Seriously we really were just a bit over the edge. Here at GS we can laugh about that and cry as well. We can scream and kick our feet like two year olds if that is what we need to do, and someone will step up and laugh with you or hand you a hankie. Someone will be the sister or brother that God expects them to be and we will in turn do the same for someone else down the road. It is a family that we all belong to. Disagreements arise and often harsh words are spoken, but in the end if a person truly desires to grow beyond that which we all were in TWI then healing can take place and people can move on with their lives. But why leave GS behind when we do? It is here that we finally find a semblence of the family that we once were looking for when we went off to follow ole Vic or his teachings. That is why I am here, I am still putting the pieces back together. My life is still pretty patchy and there are times when I will react to something using "Way brain". But I am healing and coming to a better understanding of myself, of where I have been, what I have done and where I want to be and what I want to do when I get there. But all in all there are many here on GS that I want to be there (even in cyberspace) when I reach my destination so they can share with me the fulfillment of a goal. So we as a family can share in each others triumphs, just as we have shared in each others pain. Just my opinion...

After reading your very powerful post and then reading the "rest of the story" from JJ, this quote expresses exactly how I feel. What the Fxxk happened? It is fruitless for me to even try to ferret out what happened to the ministry that I once loved so much. It saddens me beyond belief to realize just how far from God it was allowed and at times forced to stray. It sickens me when I think of all the wonderful, beautiful men and women that were hurt first by VP then by LCM and then by the ministry that claimed to be both Godly and of God. The incredibly incorrect teaching and instruction that so many people received is mind numbing. The fact that this Godly ministry had the audacity to treat God's children in such a deplorible manner and tell them that what and how they were doing it was Godly...it just makes me nauseous. In one way it makes me long intently for the Judgement Day and I am fairly certain that that is not a proper "renewed mind" Godly thought. But a stray thought here and there wont kill me.

Oh Dooj darlin' did you have to quote him? Now his voice is resounding in my skull...ohhhh I'm getting a headache! Temple lady-did they really teach you that there was a Debil Sprit named Jesus? I remember being taught not to pray to him cause that was idolatry. And I remember being taught that we had to say Jesus Christ or Christ Jesus because just saying Jesus kept him in his "man" state and he had ascended beyond that.

I dont know call me stupid but VP usually thought with the other head anyway so what difference did it matter to him? It truly was the remainder of the household, us little wayfers that missed out with twi's "absent Christ" doctrine because it left us with VP as the head. It certainly gives a different spin on "pecker head". <_<

Happy Birthday Bowtwi! Do something special and make it a memorable day! God Bless you!

Im excited! I will be there although probably late again. I don't get off of work until 2 pm PST i.e. 5 pm EST. Sometimes I get off earlier but I don't count on it. Save me a seat!

Excellent point Groucho. So simple yet so important to remember!

ROFLOL and gonna .... my pants!!! OMG!!! Did that bring back memories or what????!!!!! That was absolutely hysterical!! Thanks!

I know that this is a response for Oakspear but I just have to comment here...I don't look at this response as "placing VP on a pedestal". I know that many people did. I however did not. I simply expected the man that presumed to "teach" me a subject to actually be qualified to do so. I found out many years later as others did that his so called education was "slip shod" at best. But then I thought "surely he actually studied the Word so that he could teach it to others" (being self taught is not a crime). But this is not true either. So what is the truth? VP pretended to be an educated man that conducted his own research (sometimes with the input of others) so that he could teach others. But none of that actually happened. He wasn't on any pedestal so to speak for me, he was simply expected to live up to his own billing. When he didn't match up I dismissed him as I would any other false teacher. (Had he attempted this flim flam at a University can you imagine the fallout?) Meanwhile most of us have had to go back and reexamine everything that he taught us and try to make sense of it. Certainly there was some truth in what he taught us be it someone elses work originally or not, but with it all mixed up together with the bad...well sometimes it is just easier to call it all crap and start with a clean slate as Rascal pointed out in another thread. One good thing that I pulled out of pfal was that I learned that it is possible to study the bible. Using his principals or not, it is available. So now I can and do actually study for myself and sometimes teach others.

That was very very funny, Thank you I needed a laugh.