Eyesopen

But I wouldn't be afraid of going back and checking them out to see what is happening.

Would you?

Afraid? No my dear brother, I'm not afraid of "checking them out". TWI was not the first church that I walked away from but it will be the last. (It was my first cult. I guess that carries it's own kind of distinction.) I can see from a distance that it is not the type of "fellowship" that I would wish to be involved with. I dont have to walk back through the doors to see that much, but would I? Sure I would stop in to "see what I may see" but I can tell you with 100% certainty that I wouldn't stay.

Then how do you explain Ephesians?

Eph 5:22 ¶ Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.

Oldies you are a smart man, and I know that you have a big heart. So given those two things I am certain that you are not suggesting that these verses, regardless of how interpreted were rightfully used to justify the abuses that some wives endured at the hands of their husbands while in TWI. Are you?

Subject to the wind as it blows, or to whatever the particular color of "truth" was in stock that particular month.

I love this line Mr. Ham. It is sooo "true"! :huh: :P

I think we made a poem, Eyes...

Me: "makes you wonder why they call it Artillery Punch?

Eyes: "My imagination flows towards "blowing" things... like chunks...

Hahahaha... On my knees to the porceline god...

I think that the fact there are so many denominations is proof enough that the leadership is NOT doing IITim. 2:15, and a host of other things. The schisms are a direct result of the actions and decisions of leadership rather than “layman.”

The whole thing that got us into trouble with twi in the first place was trusting a man to teach correctly. The Berean’s were more noble than the ones in Thessalonica because they searched the Scriptures daily to see if what they were taught was correct. That I think is the safeguard.

I cant agree with you more. And I think that Mark would also agree that it is the responsiblilty of the leadership in any "Church" organization to make certain that the needs of all are being met. If they are claiming to teach biblical doctrine then they are also responsible to ensure that what they teach is biblically accurate. It simply cannot be the opinions of men, no matter how holy or godly they might think that they are.

"The whole thing that got us into trouble with TWI in the first place was trusting a man to teach correctly." I love that line! And I submit that this idea of "trusting a man" is what has gotten mankind into trouble time and again in regards to religion. The admonition that Paul gave us was to follow in Christ's footsteps and to trust in God. We have not been told to follow in Paul's footsteps and to trust in man.

Hence the reason that we need to search the scriptures daily to see if these things may be so. Both leaders and laymen alike must search the scripture. We are all of us responsible to a great extent for our own walk with God. We need to search the scriptures to make certain that what we are being taught is in fact the Word of God and not the word of man with a shiny veneer. Because as ASpot pointed out spotting the counterfeits is not so easy as it may sound.

Makes you wonder why it's called Artillery punch, doesn't it?

My imagination flows towards "blowing" things...like chunks...

I just read that recipe again... My stomach hurts just reading the "strong black tea" line...

I'm not certain how long my stomach would hurt or if it would while I was drinking or just wait until the next morning.

Just had to sneak in here to let Mark and Eyes know that their conversation is most interesting to follow. Thank you both!

So glad you could stop by Kathy dear. The last couple of posts have been a bit long. I am pleased that you would wade through them with us.

I love you dear sister!

That fried apple recipe sounds soooooo good! I love apples in savory dishes. I saute them with onions and mushrooms and serve with smoked sausages. It's yummy!

OK, here's one for you guys - I liked the name:

Artillery Punch (from my Gourmet Cookbook mentioned earlier)

Combine 1 1/2 fifths rye whiskey, 1 1/2 fifths claret, 6 cups strong black tea, 1 1/2 pints dark Jamaican rum, 3/4 pint gin, 3/4 pint Cognac, 3 oz Benedictine, 3 cups orange juice, and 1 1/2 c lemon juice. Let the mixture stand 2 hours to ripen and pour it over a large block of ice in a punch bowl. If a sweeter punch is desired, add bar syrup to taste.

This recipe produces 25 generous servings. Whether or not this amount will serve 25 persons depends upon the duration of the party and the thirst of the guests.

Sounds like a recipe for a bad hangover to me!

OMG!! If I ever make it to a weenie roast guess what I'm bringing? Haaaaahahaha

"I had noticed Mark that many denominations are now offering Bible study groups

of one form or another and I think that is absolutely wonderful! It gives

people more choice"

I don't think choice has much to do with it. In no case am I aware of a small

group being considered as a replacement for the normal liturgy, rather it is

considered a supplement to the regular service.

Well I wasnt sure how to respond to that post (taking the length into consideration so I'll try this. First off I understand your desire to use the word "supplement" instead of 'choice" Perhaps in the church that you attend that word is more correct but in the context that I was speaking "Choice" was correct. I was referring to choices between those Churches that offer a more diverse "package" as opposed to those that do not.

"I think that the body of Christ actually

works better when every part of the body does what it is supposed to be doing.

(I am being a bit sarcastic here but it is not aimed at anyone in particular).

The body of Christ has many different parts for a reason."

And you are echoing the thoughts of St. Paul, as written in 1 Cor 12

Funny that is the scripture that I was thinking of when I wrote that line. I do not feel compelled to quote scripture for every comment that I make that reflects or echoes the scripture. I'm sorry if this confuses anyone.

"But many of those parts have been stiffled for so very long."

Here, on the other hand, I think we diverge in our opinions considerably

1 Cor 12:18

But now God has placed the members, each one

of them, in the body, just as He

desired

You'll note that the above says that God has placed the members, not that the

members figured out for themselves which body part they'd want to be. Much of

the 'stifled' feeling that I've seen throughout my life is from people who

want to struggle against God (albeit they likely don't recognize this) and

where/what God wants from them in their lives. If a person wishes to walk in

the footsteps of Christ, then should he do as Christ did?

John 6:38

For I have come down from heaven, not to do

My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me

How many times did Christ express those thoughts throughout the Gospels? How

about St. Paul (e.g., Phil 1:21, <span style="FONT-STYLE:italic">For to me, to

live is Christ and to die is gain</span>) If Jesus did not come down from

heaven to do His own will, if Paul's very existence is Christ, then maybe I

should consider living for Christ rather than for what I perceive to be my own

satisfaction/ self-fulfillment.

So perhaps these people who feel stifled should, rather than attempting to

become a member that they, in fact, aren't called to be, should strive to be

the best that they can be where God placed them?

Actually the reference was not to the people stifleing themselves but rather being stifled by the Churches that would not offer a more diverse manner in which to know God. IMHO a church that only teaches men for example how to study the Bible or how to minister to people or whatever the man behind the pulpit is supposed to do and does not offer that same instruction to women does in fact "stifle" the members of the body. God put them there we know that, but he also gave them free will to walk away from the Church or Churches that do not fullfill their needs (in former years they would have been and were murdered for doing just that but today women have rights as well). In this manner I think that the Churches that offer a more diverse program often are the places for those that are seeking more, such as myself, ASpot and Bramble and many others. None of us could have taken our rightful places in the body had TWI or others who were willing to teach women were not available. I know that you are not saying for us to just be happy with "our lot in life" so I will not come unglued at how abrasive that comment was to me. I will give you the benefit of the doubt concerning that comment.

"For so many year the major churches have monopolized not only religion but the

basic thought processes and decision making processes of people."

Consider this for a minute if you would, using the analogy of the Body.

As it is, thereare many parts, yet one body.

Not multiple bodies, just one

1 Cor 12:24b-26

But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior

part that there may be no discord (or schism) in the body but that the members may have

the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together;

if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am ofApollos," are you not carnal?

"It is a shame that the 'major churches monopolize religion. Christ has ONE body and we are all members of that ONE

body. Because there is the illusion put forth of having multiple bodies

(churches), there is not the feeling of having ONE body. We are separated from

each other and not in accord. Each man follows God, not according to the will

of God, but according to the man's own vain imaginations. And that is little

better than idolatry monopolized... the basic thought processes and decision making processes of

people"

A person's religion has a primary responsibility for helping the people form

and develop their consciences so that doing the will of God rather than the

will of man is the norm. It's how we avoid getting a "reprobate mind." (cf Rom

1:28). And when the conscience is formed, the thoughts and the decision making

process will be impacted. If a person's religion doesn't do that, I would

submit that the religion is not doing it's job. (Whether you agree with the

content of the formation or not is a separate issue, I am merely talking about

the importance of forming the conscience w/o regard for the content of that

formation)

We agree here that organizations such as TWI would not even have a true marketplace had the Churches been doing their jobs adequitely.

"For example a community could become conditioned to believe and think that

only men were allowed to go to school past the age of 12. Women could only

attend until they were 12 and then they were to go home and pursue more

womanly endeavors. So if they saw or heard of somebody even thinking of doing

it differently then they would think badly of that person. Not only that but

they would not endeavor themselves to go beyond what they "knew" to be right."

Obviously, I would think that the example is backwards and ignorant.

However, I don't know that the principle, in of itself, is necessarily bad. If

a community has inculcated modesty, would it be improper to apply societal

pressures to maintain modesty? How about monogamy? How about respect of

private property?

It was just an example, and one that was supposed to be obsurd enough to draw a point.

"So it was with Bible study for so long in the churches of our world. Look for example at

Martin Luther (not King or Jr) In Rev Luther's time the Bible was not written

in the language of the people. He helped bring about that change."

Actually, Luther was not the first one to translate the scriptures into the

vernacular. The first example that should be considered is the Septuagint, the

translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek (the vernacular for those

people who read it). That happened several hundred years before Christ. St.

Jerome translated the scriptures (both OT and NT) from the original languages

into Latin in the 4th Century AD. Latin was the vernacular at that time in the

Western Roman Empire. The scriptures were also translated into Coptic (the

vernacular in NE Africa) around the second century. As to modern languages,

many scriptural translations existed prior to Luther's version, originally

printed in 1522. There are translations dating from the 13th and 14th century.

In fact, the Douay-Rheims Bible, a Catholic translation, was completed in

1609...the Rheims NT was published in 1582! (The King James version was

published in 1611).

I didnt say he was the first example just an example. I thought that others who might read this thread would have a better understanding of a man that is at least fairly commonly known by all.

One thing to consider is that Gutenberg hadn't invented the movable-type

printing press until 1450. So prior to that time, the Bible would not have

been in the hands of the populace, anyway, as the cost of the book would have

been out of reach of all but the most wealthy.

Availability was not the point. The point was that it took someone breaking away from the dominant Christian Church of the time to bring about a change that IMO should have been initiated by the Church.

"Eventually the church that he had fought against saw the wisdom of this idea."

This topic is way too deep for a derailment of this thread (I would be happy

to discuss it, but it would take far too long here). I would refer you

to

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/w...five.html" target="_blank" title="Luther's 95 Theses">Luther's 95 Theses though, and ask you to show me which one

of those theses discusses the wisdom of the people spending time studying the

Word of God in their vernacular. (Hint: you won't find it)

I have my own copy of the 95 thesis thank you. I know what they do and do not say. Again...not the point.

"But it was the habit of thought pattern that kept so many wonderful men of God blind in

this regard. It was not something that they did intentionally. I am certain

that the original intent was not to keep the Bible or the understanding of the

Bible out of the hands of the people. But that is ultimately what

happened."

Keep in mind that most people wouldn't have known to do with a Bible even if

they had one. Most people were illiterate, and I do mean MOST. Luther didn't

fix that. Nor did Calvin. Nor did Zwingli. They preached to people who

responded to their preaching. This was not only the situation during the

middle ages, it has been that way from the beginning and, even in Europe and

the US, was that way up until the 20th Century. (Though the movement toward

universal literacy started during the 19th Century and, in fact, continues to

this day)

I think that you will find that a huge portion of the world is still illiterate but does this stop missionaries from trying to teach?

"That thought pattern was loosened with the different translations of the Bible but

ultimately some still taught that the average layman was not capable of truly

interpreting the meaning of the Bibles teachings. That thought, that habit of

thinking silently infused itself into the fabric of the basic theologies of

many denominations. The manifestation of that thought was the lack of Biblical

study offered to any but the very young for indoctination purposes or the

ministers or clergy class but seldom to the layperson in the

middle."

First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own

interpretation

It sounds to me that laymen interpreting the Bible for themselves is sort-of

discouraged in Scripture, as well. Remember, above, where I discussed "one

body"? All the schism that has happened in the past 500 years is as the result

of 'one's own interpretation.' After all, why in the world are the "Free-Will

Baptists" not in total fellowship with the "Southern Baptists" or the "General

Baptists" or the "United Baptists" or the "Primitive Baptists" or the

"Independent Baptists" or the "Missionary Baptists," etc., etc., etc.? And I

could go with any number of denominational 'families' for that.

There has been much discussion on this board concerning that little bit of scripture. The bottom line was that VP did not present a correct translation of it. Besides as you and I have both know God wants us to come to an accurate knowledge of the truth. As far as separate denominations and many Churches is concerned...I dont disagree with you in the slightest. But you might disagree with me when I say that not one religion today is the ONE that has all the truth.

"As I said this is not a bash on anybody or any denomination at all it just seems

like the logical procession of a prevailing thought pattern that I for one am

glad to see is quietly dying. I also think that as ASpot has so

eloquently pointed out that none of us probably set out to be in a cult. (See

my tag line below) Most of us didn't wake up one morning and realized that we

had become a part of the monster that we had set out to destroy. But the

teaching had crept into the web of our brains and had fermented into a vile

concoction that we must now sift through to find the remnants of our innocent

selves.

Wow I have gone on for quite some time and I apologize for such a long post. Mark I agree that

filled a need that was lacking perhaps because the Churches did not do their jobs either

correctly or efficiently. I'm still thinking on the Ordination

thing."

I understand that this is not a bash on a particular denomination...and I also

recognize that many of us are still trying to figure out where we're at in

regards to the subject of religion/spirituality. I, hopefully, offer a

slightly different perspective than some others.

You do offer a different perspective that I really do welcome. Your knowledge of history is impressive. I would love to sit and talk with you about it someday. Although I do realize that this is not the time or the place for such a thing. I hope that you do not take any of my responses as a direct insult to you or what you said, mostly I just wanted to clarify what I had said.

You might notice that I have no denominational ties at the moment and dont see any on the horizon. I am just enjoying learning about all of them. A quest that began before I entered TWI, that can now continue....

Welcome to the Spot Katy. Do not hesitate to ask just about anyone anything that pops into your head, but do be certain that you really want to know the answer first. I can see that you are already familiarizing yourself with the available reading material and information. Good luck with your coworker.

Beautiful song! And a great reflection of my own heart. Happy 4th of July to all!

I love you all!

I'm off to the river to cool my heals and eat fried chicken. Here's hoping ya'll have a wonderful day.

My apologies for the brevity of my response. I would like to say more but just don't have time this morning, as I am running late.

Heeheheheeheee...I'm sorry I find it amusing that you apologize for a short post and I apologized for such a long one. What a pair we are. Hahaha

GS is a place to: yell, scream, complain, encourage and be encouraged. It is a place to learn and unlearn. It is a place to put things together and dismantle other things. It is a place of humor, crying and speaking frankly. It is playful and serious. It is a quilt of different colors and patterns. It may be a crazy quilt, but it’s ours. And that’s ok.

Outstanding symbolism ASpot! I couldn't have said it better myself.

I had noticed Mark that many denominations are now offering Bible study groups of one form or another and I think that is absolutely wonderful! It gives people more choice. I think that the body of Christ actually works better when every part of the body does what it is supposed to be doing. (I am being a bit sarcastic here but it is not aimed at anyone in particular). The body of Christ has many different parts for a reason. But many of those parts have been stiffled for so very long. For so many year the major churches have monopolized not only religion but the basic thought processes and decision making processes of people.

For example a community could become conditioned to believe and think that only men were allowed to go to school past the age of 12. Women could only attend until they were 12 and then they were to go home and pursue more womanly endeavors. So if they saw or heard of somebody even thinking of doing it differently then they would think badly of that person. Not only that but they would not endeavor themselves to go beyond what they "knew" to be right. So it was with Bible study for so long in the churches of our world. Look for example at Martin Luther (not King or Jr) In Rev Luther's time the Bible was not written in the language of the people. He helped bring about that change. Eventually the church that he had fought against saw the wisdom of this idea. But it was the habit of thought pattern that kept so many wonderful men of God blind in this regard. It was not something that they did intentionally. I am certain that the original intent was not to keep the Bible or the understanding of the Bible out of the hands of the people. But that is ultimately what happened.

That thought pattern was loosened with the different translations of the Bible but ultimately some still taught that the average layman was not capable of truly interpreting the meaning of the Bibles teachings. That thought, that habit of thinking silently infused itself into the fabric of the basic theologies of many denominations. The manifestation of that thought was the lack of Biblical study offered to any but the very young for indoctination purposes or the ministers or clergy class but seldom to the layperson in the middle.

As I said this is not a bash on anybody or any denomination at all it just seems like the logical procession of a prevailing thought pattern that I for one am glad to see is quietly dying. I also think that as ASpot has so eloquently pointed out that none of us probably set out to be in a cult. (See my tag line below) Most of us didn't wake up one morning and realized that we had become a part of the monster that we had set out to destroy. But the teaching had crept into the web of our brains and had fermented into a vile concoction that we must now sift through to find the remnants of our innocent selves.

Wow I have gone on for quite some time and I apologize for such a long post. Mark I agree that TWI filled a need that was lacking perhaps because the Churches did not do their jobs either correctly or efficiently. I'm still thinking on the Ordination thing.

ASpot I think that you were then and are today exactly where God wants you to be. There was a lot of bad in TWI, but just like a fairy tail about sea monsters, their is truth in there somewhere it's just well hidden. My advice to you is to ask questions, on the board or in PM's read and listen to everyone's argument and above all think for yourself, prove everything to see if it is true and if it is true then change your mind (once again see my tag line). I admire your tenacity and honesty and I thank you for the compliment. I am glad that I could help you in some small way, if I can assist further then please let me know.

Hey there Eyes Open, I have written a number of stories. Maybe you could help me out?

Kevin

I would be happy to Jonny. What do you want to do with them? Publish as a book? Short stories? Childrens book with illustrations? PM me bro.

I liked the one about the morning the squirrel came home after a night on the town..

I like that one too....but I got a thing for furry little squirrels..

The church that I am a member of is a church where only men may be ordained. In addition, the readings (one from the OT, a psalm, a NT epistle, and a reading from the gospel) are done on a three-year cycle (two year cycle for daily worship). And thus they are able to print out the seasonal booklets (they generally print them four times a year).

And, although my church is not the only one where things are done that way, it is undoubtedly the best known for that.

I would submit that you are right, in part. Although by doing things that way, the congregants will be exposed to a good portion of the Bible, the worship service done in that type of format, in of itself, is not a truly effective way for studying the Bible.

On the other hand, I truly don't believe that anybody would say it is designed to be a Bible study class, either. It's designed to be a worship service.

You are absolutely correct Mark, fellowship, service, mass whatever the particular church may call it isn't designed as a Bible study class it is designed to be a worship service that has a small teaching of some sort to exhort (hopefully) the followers. Which in and of itself is very effective and quite nice. Obviously worship service fulfills a need, not only biblically but emotionally and spiritually as well. Which is all many people need to have their entire lives.

But for me it just wasn't enough. I wanted to know more. I wanted somebody to help me learn the Bible. This was not available for women in the church that I had been brought up. So the lure of TWI for me was knowledge. And yes I know that knowledge puffs up, but only if it becomes your God. I use my knowledge to better know God so that I may better serve Him.

I guess that brings us full circle doesn't it? Back to the original topic that knowledge or the pursuit of it was for TWI some sort of special key into the kingdom. I believe that just as it is not required for His children to "study" to be approved it is not forbidden for His children to study for better understanding. All things are weighed by Him and He looks at a mans heart and a mans actions that are a reflection of what is in his heart.

On a side note I really feel sorry for those churches that dont allow women to be ordained. They IMHO are really missing out on the complete fullness that comes when men and women work together within the church. But as I said that is just my opinion.

Wow that does sound yummy! Gonna have to get some apples. Granny Smith would probably work.

Thanks Belle! I kind of feel like a real knucklehead for not looking it up myself.

:) Thanks guys. I wrote most of them down once, but that is as far as it ever went. Suffic it to say, there are some of the most mortifying moments in my life....lol

Want some help figuring out how to publish them? Perhaps organizing them into book format? Hmmm...? Let me know darlin'.

It was sick Eyes. It is awfull what you had to do tobe considered a *vrtuous* woman...one whom was spiritually sharp and mature. I hated what I had to do, but I didn`t dare disobey God and not keep my commitment. I didn`t dare try to keep the child and risk trying to live life without God`s protection.

I couldn`t live with the shame of having let him down. I couldn`t live without the support and protection of the house hold.

All of that so called *freedom* just put us into horrble bondage.

The condemnation was used as a leash. It kept all of us bound to them. They were the ministry of God, we had to keep ourselves in good graces with them or God wouldn't spit in our direction. Just SICKENING!!!!!

I can totally understand exactly what you were feeling and thinking. You had to do anything to keep that committment. You would have walked on hot coals in bare feet if they were to tell you that was the only way to keep your committment. I know....I know...

But you have consolation, today you know that you did keep your committment. It was they who broke theirs. They will pay for the pain and suffering that has been caused at their hands. Never fear my dear friend God will repay to you what you have lost and he will bring them to task. And although you cry now...you will laugh again!

It just burns me up when I think of all the wonderful people that bought their B*ll Sh!t and believed that God is some tyrant that would want people to debase themselves and place themselves in a place of such shame and pain to keep a committment. We all make mistakes, we all sin and come short of the glory of God. God isn't stupid and he isn't a tyrant. He made forgiveness available only ask with repentance and he will forgive. But not in TWI no sir, our God will forgive you but then you have to do some other things to remain in his grace and in fellowship.

"Freedom"! My lily white tail end! The only people that had freedom were the ones that were not walking according to the Word. Well that's not entirely true one could be free in their own mind and personal walk as long as they stayed out of the sight of leadership. But that was not entirely free either. TWI was like a prison or a nut house that we all voluntarilly checked ourselves into. I'm just glad I survived and am out now.

I really just love the way this sounds in this version:

Galatians 5:19-26 (NIV)

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Alright I'm just the official taster here so forgive me for not knowing how ya'll do things or what the thingies are that you do it with; but what in the Sam hill is a "pudding cloth". Help an ole redneck out will ya?

Sooo...?

When I got pregnant on the wow field, I assumed of course that I had blown it past all possibility of redemption.... that I had to leave and did so. I was sought out and taken to the lc`s. I was told in no uncertain terms... that the *sin* wasn`t in HAVING sex ...only if I allowed the pregnancy to interfere with the commitment/promise/vow that I had made to God.

I was stunned that sex was not viewed as taboo...that it wasn`t any big deal at all...it only became a big deal if I didn`t deal with my *little problem*

I truly hated the attitude that TWI took towards sex and pregnancy. Like most cults they used sex as a coersion tool. It was just another way to control the masses. And a way to boost membership. I mean who wouldnt mind a little "legalism" if they could have sex with whomever they wanted? And if you get the girl pregnant...no worries the "Church" will make them get an abortion. <_< And if you happen to be the female that wants "certain things" then you too can be a whore for Jesus. But don't worry nobody will call you that to your face. But you may be called upon to take a few naps with various people.

If you happen to truly want to walk the word of God and be a true ambassador for Christ and have respect well dont expect it with this ministry, no way not this ministry baby! You get M & A if you try that little stunt! But if you do try it boy dont make a mistake or let your hair down for even a second with this bunch 'cause if they see you then they have you by the short and curlies! Then they can tell you that sex is just fine with us...just a long as you deal with the problem that comes with it if you didn't attend to the "details" before you had sex. But now they really have you because you dared to "act better than them". When all along you were just trying to do the Word. But once having been caught being human they never let you forget that you are just as "bad" as them and they call you self righteous if you try to correct their behavior.

It was a truly sick way of thinking. Abortion is not a form of birth control. And should never be the decision of anyone but the parents IMO. And the "leaders" of der Vey had no clue what a "committment to God" really was, they talked about it and they told people what it was but I dont think that they ever made a committment to God. So they didn't care if you broke your committment, you are responsible to God for what you do...not them. They were just worthless creeps!

I was going to say "Dont get me started" then I read what I had written...it was too late...I got started...sorry, I'll shut up now.

That does sound good, Groucho!

Waysider, good question! I think it's probably some combination of citrus peel but I'll ask.

Oh darn now that I have the recipe it is too late for Christmas but maybe just in time for New years! My first one off in about 5 years! Gonna have fun this year!

Thanks Belle!

And Groucho that sounds really yummy! My German Grandma used to make German fried potatoes they are tiny diced potatoes with a bit of bell pepper fried in Bacon grease until fully saturated. I hadn't had them in years until we had a "World Cuisine" festival here in Reno and one of the countries represented was Germany. Complete with non English speaking Germans! So you just know I had a plate of Brats, Kraut and Taters with a Black and Tan from the English "pub" across the square. Yumm! Of course I couldnt stand afterwards, but nobody noticed 'cause they couldn't either!

Well apparently I am smarter than I thought...

Dr. Teresa @@@@@ holds a Ph.D. in Sociology with an emphasis in family demography. She earned her doctorate from Bowling Green State University in 1998. ...

And if that is not enough my alter ego was busy being a key speaker at the World Transplant Congress annual conference:

Can We Still Grow? Have We Met Our Potential in Organ Donation

Teresa @@@@@, RN, MSN, CPTC is executive vice president and chief operating officer of LifeGift Organ Donation Center in Houston, Tex. She is national cochair of the Organ Donation Breakthrough Collaborative

Apparenty the nurse is more popular and does more community outreach than the Dr.

No relation to either tho.

Eyes open--when I first got involved in TWI the fact that women appeared to be on the same level as men as far as teaching running fellowships etc was very appealing. Claudette Royal was ordained! Women could run fellowships and wow families, be leadership...that was not what I had seen in any Christian churches in my youth.

I know that it was a serious lure for me. Not that I really wanted to be a leader (that was a plus for me) but I really wanted to know the bible! I really wanted to know God and the Church that I had grown up in told me that I didnt need to bring my bible to church. I was told that some men that were smarter than me had already determined what was important out of the bible and provided the information in a denominational booklet. Which was really "short" on actual bible. It kind of made me wonder if the men at the pulpit actually read the bible or if they just read from the booklet.