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I had noticed Mark that many denominations are now offering Bible study groups of one form or another and I think that is absolutely wonderful! It gives people more choice. I think that the body of Christ actually works better when every part of the body does what it is supposed to be doing. (I am being a bit sarcastic here but it is not aimed at anyone in particular). The body of Christ has many different parts for a reason. But many of those parts have been stiffled for so very long. For so many year the major churches have monopolized not only religion but the basic thought processes and decision making processes of people. For example a community could become conditioned to believe and think that only men were allowed to go to school past the age of 12. Women could only attend until they were 12 and then they were to go home and pursue more womanly endeavors. So if they saw or heard of somebody even thinking of doing it differently then they would think badly of that person. Not only that but they would not endeavor themselves to go beyond what they "knew" to be right. So it was with Bible study for so long in the churches of our world. Look for example at Martin Luther (not King or Jr) In Rev Luther's time the Bible was not written in the language of the people. He helped bring about that change. Eventually the church that he had fought against saw the wisdom of this idea. But it was the habit of thought pattern that kept so many wonderful men of God blind in this regard. It was not something that they did intentionally. I am certain that the original intent was not to keep the Bible or the understanding of the Bible out of the hands of the people. But that is ultimately what happened. That thought pattern was loosened with the different translations of the Bible but ultimately some still taught that the average layman was not capable of truly interpreting the meaning of the Bibles teachings. That thought, that habit of thinking silently infused itself into the fabric of the basic theologies of many denominations. The manifestation of that thought was the lack of Biblical study offered to any but the very young for indoctination purposes or the ministers or clergy class but seldom to the layperson in the middle. As I said this is not a bash on anybody or any denomination at all it just seems like the logical procession of a prevailing thought pattern that I for one am glad to see is quietly dying. I also think that as ASpot has so eloquently pointed out that none of us probably set out to be in a cult. (See my tag line below) Most of us didn't wake up one morning and realized that we had become a part of the monster that we had set out to destroy. But the teaching had crept into the web of our brains and had fermented into a vile concoction that we must now sift through to find the remnants of our innocent selves. Wow I have gone on for quite some time and I apologize for such a long post. Mark I agree that TWI filled a need that was lacking perhaps because the Churches did not do their jobs either correctly or efficiently. I'm still thinking on the Ordination thing. ASpot I think that you were then and are today exactly where God wants you to be. There was a lot of bad in TWI, but just like a fairy tail about sea monsters, their is truth in there somewhere it's just well hidden. My advice to you is to ask questions, on the board or in PM's read and listen to everyone's argument and above all think for yourself, prove everything to see if it is true and if it is true then change your mind (once again see my tag line). I admire your tenacity and honesty and I thank you for the compliment. I am glad that I could help you in some small way, if I can assist further then please let me know.

I would be happy to Jonny. What do you want to do with them? Publish as a book? Short stories? Childrens book with illustrations? PM me bro. I like that one too....but I got a thing for furry little squirrels..

You are absolutely correct Mark, fellowship, service, mass whatever the particular church may call it isn't designed as a Bible study class it is designed to be a worship service that has a small teaching of some sort to exhort (hopefully) the followers. Which in and of itself is very effective and quite nice. Obviously worship service fulfills a need, not only biblically but emotionally and spiritually as well. Which is all many people need to have their entire lives. But for me it just wasn't enough. I wanted to know more. I wanted somebody to help me learn the Bible. This was not available for women in the church that I had been brought up. So the lure of TWI for me was knowledge. And yes I know that knowledge puffs up, but only if it becomes your God. I use my knowledge to better know God so that I may better serve Him. I guess that brings us full circle doesn't it? Back to the original topic that knowledge or the pursuit of it was for TWI some sort of special key into the kingdom. I believe that just as it is not required for His children to "study" to be approved it is not forbidden for His children to study for better understanding. All things are weighed by Him and He looks at a mans heart and a mans actions that are a reflection of what is in his heart. On a side note I really feel sorry for those churches that dont allow women to be ordained. They IMHO are really missing out on the complete fullness that comes when men and women work together within the church. But as I said that is just my opinion.

Wow that does sound yummy! Gonna have to get some apples. Granny Smith would probably work. Thanks Belle! I kind of feel like a real knucklehead for not looking it up myself.

Want some help figuring out how to publish them? Perhaps organizing them into book format? Hmmm...? Let me know darlin'.

The condemnation was used as a leash. It kept all of us bound to them. They were the ministry of God, we had to keep ourselves in good graces with them or God wouldn't spit in our direction. Just SICKENING!!!!! I can totally understand exactly what you were feeling and thinking. You had to do anything to keep that committment. You would have walked on hot coals in bare feet if they were to tell you that was the only way to keep your committment. I know....I know... But you have consolation, today you know that you did keep your committment. It was they who broke theirs. They will pay for the pain and suffering that has been caused at their hands. Never fear my dear friend God will repay to you what you have lost and he will bring them to task. And although you cry now...you will laugh again! It just burns me up when I think of all the wonderful people that bought their B*ll Sh!t and believed that God is some tyrant that would want people to debase themselves and place themselves in a place of such shame and pain to keep a committment. We all make mistakes, we all sin and come short of the glory of God. God isn't stupid and he isn't a tyrant. He made forgiveness available only ask with repentance and he will forgive. But not in TWI no sir, our God will forgive you but then you have to do some other things to remain in his grace and in fellowship. "Freedom"! My lily white tail end! The only people that had freedom were the ones that were not walking according to the Word. Well that's not entirely true one could be free in their own mind and personal walk as long as they stayed out of the sight of leadership. But that was not entirely free either. TWI was like a prison or a nut house that we all voluntarilly checked ourselves into. I'm just glad I survived and am out now. I really just love the way this sounds in this version: Galatians 5:19-26 (NIV) The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Alright I'm just the official taster here so forgive me for not knowing how ya'll do things or what the thingies are that you do it with; but what in the Sam hill is a "pudding cloth". Help an ole redneck out will ya?

Sooo...?

I truly hated the attitude that TWI took towards sex and pregnancy. Like most cults they used sex as a coersion tool. It was just another way to control the masses. And a way to boost membership. I mean who wouldnt mind a little "legalism" if they could have sex with whomever they wanted? And if you get the girl pregnant...no worries the "Church" will make them get an abortion. <_< And if you happen to be the female that wants "certain things" then you too can be a whore for Jesus. But don't worry nobody will call you that to your face. But you may be called upon to take a few naps with various people. If you happen to truly want to walk the word of God and be a true ambassador for Christ and have respect well dont expect it with this ministry, no way not this ministry baby! You get M & A if you try that little stunt! But if you do try it boy dont make a mistake or let your hair down for even a second with this bunch 'cause if they see you then they have you by the short and curlies! Then they can tell you that sex is just fine with us...just a long as you deal with the problem that comes with it if you didn't attend to the "details" before you had sex. But now they really have you because you dared to "act better than them". When all along you were just trying to do the Word. But once having been caught being human they never let you forget that you are just as "bad" as them and they call you self righteous if you try to correct their behavior. It was a truly sick way of thinking. Abortion is not a form of birth control. And should never be the decision of anyone but the parents IMO. And the "leaders" of der Vey had no clue what a "committment to God" really was, they talked about it and they told people what it was but I dont think that they ever made a committment to God. So they didn't care if you broke your committment, you are responsible to God for what you do...not them. They were just worthless creeps! I was going to say "Dont get me started" then I read what I had written...it was too late...I got started...sorry, I'll shut up now.

Oh darn now that I have the recipe it is too late for Christmas but maybe just in time for New years! My first one off in about 5 years! Gonna have fun this year! Thanks Belle! And Groucho that sounds really yummy! My German Grandma used to make German fried potatoes they are tiny diced potatoes with a bit of bell pepper fried in Bacon grease until fully saturated. I hadn't had them in years until we had a "World Cuisine" festival here in Reno and one of the countries represented was Germany. Complete with non English speaking Germans! So you just know I had a plate of Brats, Kraut and Taters with a Black and Tan from the English "pub" across the square. Yumm! Of course I couldnt stand afterwards, but nobody noticed 'cause they couldn't either!

Well apparently I am smarter than I thought... Dr. Teresa @@@@@ holds a Ph.D. in Sociology with an emphasis in family demography. She earned her doctorate from Bowling Green State University in 1998. ... And if that is not enough my alter ego was busy being a key speaker at the World Transplant Congress annual conference: Can We Still Grow? Have We Met Our Potential in Organ Donation Teresa @@@@@, RN, MSN, CPTC is executive vice president and chief operating officer of LifeGift Organ Donation Center in Houston, Tex. She is national cochair of the Organ Donation Breakthrough Collaborative Apparenty the nurse is more popular and does more community outreach than the Dr. No relation to either tho.

I know that it was a serious lure for me. Not that I really wanted to be a leader (that was a plus for me) but I really wanted to know the bible! I really wanted to know God and the Church that I had grown up in told me that I didnt need to bring my bible to church. I was told that some men that were smarter than me had already determined what was important out of the bible and provided the information in a denominational booklet. Which was really "short" on actual bible. It kind of made me wonder if the men at the pulpit actually read the bible or if they just read from the booklet.

Do tell Exie if you feel so inclined...

"That is how I was taught that only the man at the pulpit had the authority to interpret and therefore teach the bible." I was taught that only the man at the pulpit was allowed to learn the bible...women werent allowed to stand at the pulpit... I am sorry if you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Sometimes I dont give someone all the information.

I would love to be able to say that with the right information I would have had more sense than to get involved with TWI. But the real rub with them was that they were able to bait the hook so well that it was disguised beneath the bait. I thought as many others did that they not only had the truth they were the truth. We thought that we were "uprooting vices and implanting virtues" and we thought that we were "living" the Word. So no I dont think that anything would have been different for me. I still would have done what I did. The really good thing is that I would still be where I am today. Which is a good place. But the information is excellent Mark! It is wonderful for retrospect and for future teaching. Sometimes teaching ahead of time works, it just wouldn't have for me, not on this point anyway. Because I thought that TWI taught the scriptures, since I had no biblical basis myself I had to trust that someone else had it . That is how I was taught that only the man at the pulpit had the authority to interpret and therefore teach the bible. TWI use that against a lot of people. That was part of the bait. To be able to learn how to study it for yourself! Who could pass that up? But then again I was raised in a church where females were not allowed behind the pulpit...still arent. So I felt that if I wanted to know I had no recourse but to learn from TWI. At least that is what I thought. But my heart was pure in that I wanted a personal relationship with God. So He honored my hearts desire and taught me sometimes despited TWI's best efforts to keep me in the dark. Which is why as much as I would sometimes like to do so I cannot just chuck it all out and start over. But I did in fact just put it all down for a number of years and prayed a lot. Eventually those things that never made any sense or little sense just fell away and I was left with a less cluttered understanding. Throught the years I have discarded a lot of old stuff, and rearranged others, but at this date I am still peeling back the layers and am now dealing with the most basic doctrines and habit patterns that were installed and instilled by TWI. I cannot change my past but I can use what I learned from it to shape my future.

Woman that is just plane rude, not that I've been addressing "rude" people lately, but how dare you drop bait like that and not post the recipe! Hmmm....? Well I'm waiting..... You know I'm joking right?

Hahaha...wow that did bring back some memories! My WOW sister had an affair on the field and our Limb C. allowed it. She even got engaged on the field. But it was ok because she was "going through some things" and needed to "let loose" and "unwind". So it was ok for her to ignore her committment, the family and everything else so she could spend time with her boyfriend (who was by TWI standards an unbeliever) Yup it was a wacky year!

Cathy my friend, Awww...I just want give you a big hug! But that darn fish you're holding is a bit of a determent... You are a sick woman to leave the lake to get a GS fix...have you spoken to a psych about this fixation? I for one am greatful that I came here as well. I have fixed pieces of myself that I didn't know were broken. And have made more friends here than I ever did while inside. So I would like to add my voice to Rascal's in the Thank you department.

That's how I feel about Rascal as well, but also how I feel about Another Spot and Dooj and You and Temple Lady and Bramble and many others. I could go on and on once again but i wont. I have already done that. :) Isn't it wonderful how we can come here to this Spot and talk about TWI without fear of reprisal from the "powers that were". We didn't become "greasespots" because God wouldn't spit in our direction or because we walked away. We all became greasespots for our own reasons as is easily testified in this thread. But I am seeing a prevailing idea here...many people that have come here eventually begin to enjoy the freedom of speech that is allowed here and the lack of "nametags". It is great for us all when we remember that regardless of the color that our nametags once were...we no longer wear them. Hence we all have equal voice here and that we all bring something equally important to the table. Everyone is treated as an individual and their ideas and thoughts are also treated individually. This is why ASpot you have experienced a different side of Jean, just as I have. But here on this thread some thoughts and more specifically posts are being evaluated by the readers for their specific content, not what may have been said elsewhere. I personally think that we should all try to at least be civil to one another, because we wont all get along all the time. But thats just me.

TL-Amen and Thank you JJ-I really dig the cat! Rascal- Love you girl!

I think you're right Mark, I really wish TWI had taught it that way. They made such a big deal out of "studying" and so many young folks (new to der vey) got really "turned off" by this teaching because it was too much like school or too daunting. Not as much "love" and good times that one would expect from a small ministry like der Vey. Too much emphasis was put on "works" to get in or "works" to have the right spot in heaven. Instead of just recieving Gods love, mercy and grace. But I kind of thing that this is where ASpot was going to begin with.

Now why may I ask do I get such a clear picture in my mind of this Nativity scene? Maybe I've seen something like it before..hmm could be...

Larry the Cable Guy. Without a doubt is one of the funniest men I have ever heard. We have a truck here in town that has "Git Er Done!" in the back window. It kinda hides the gun rack. Is Reno, Nevada a Redneck hangout? Yup! Who woulda figured that one? So then what comedian takes a close second? You guessed it Jeff Foxworthy. Lucky for us we get to see them all as they tour the country, everybody whos somebody plays Nevada at one time or another.

This is something that I have also been thinking of lately. Many verses especially in Psalms encourage people to "ponder" or 'think" on the word of the Lord. And in conjunction they often are associated with being at peace because we would then know God or understand something about God. It had nothing to do with "studying" to be approved. It had everything to do with thinking about what you have read, how it applies to you personally and perhaps to others. It had to do with understanding God and what He does and perhaps why He does it. I look forward to seeing what you have learned and wish to share about the Sermon on the Mount.

See Chas...what'd I tell ya? Give her an inch she'll take six...or ten...or twelve..well you get the picture!