Eyesopen

…GSC is an amazing, place isn't it?! What freedom! And what blows my mind is the unique harmony here. Yeah – I know we sometimes argue and fight – but what I notice is how people [each with a unique viewpoint] freely express themselves and are usually very accepting of others…

WOW, Eyes Open!!!! Great stuff!!! So true...and you found all that in the couch cushions?

So right T-Bone...GSC is an amazing place! And it is amazing because as you say we all can come here to argue and fight and freely express ourselves without having to make potato salad!

And yup I got all that out of the couch...darn nice couch...got it at a rummage sale for $10. But I had to put the change in the cushions myself...

Eyes, I think you found more than a dollar! Still digesting it...

I'm with you Bramble. It isn't just the control I don't like. I can't bring myself to make a commitment to anyone but my family and friends, especially with regard to time and effort. I have NO idea why. I really don't.

Maybe if I scrounge around some more I can have Micky D's for lunch and get fat like the rest of America! Hehe

Ok so here's my opinion on the whole can't make a commitment thing. It's not the commitment, because you made one to your family. It's a commitment to an organization because in TWI making a "commitment" was akin to signing away your soul. It was for life, "never break a commitment to God!" But the hook was commiting yourself to twig three times a week, that's not hard, it was "fun" to see everyone and if you had a good coordinator then it was a blast. But then they asked "could you help set up for the branch or Limb meeting? or bring something for the BBQ afterwards?" Then it was "Have you thought of going WOW?" Then it was "Have you thought of the Corps? or Univ of Life or Pick your favorite...?"

The point is it all started with the little commitment of a bowl of potato salad on Sunday and became a lifelong commitment to der Vey. It was the ultimate Domino effect. The really sad thing is that we were the ones that did it, we are "they" and today we still group together sometimes based solely upon the group(s) that we were once in. This is not always a bad thing, because of the groups we were in we share similar memories and experiences so it is natural for us to want to talk abuot them. But sometimes we still think like we are still in that group...and we are not. We are grease spots now; all of us. TWI, what's left of it lingers in our memories and sometimes our actions. As much as we beat it down it rears its ugly head at times and spits obscenities at everyone. Just like it did when we were "in".

It makes me laugh when I read some posts where people claim to have "thrown away" their "Way brain" along with the books and stuff. But then in reading their posts it is obvious that they are merely denying its existance. It is true that some were more immersed than others but all of us were touched and became part of the "tree" of der Vey in one aspect or another.

Ok...I am so going to stop digging in the couch now...

Dooj!! So good to see you and know that you are "on line" again. Let the harrassing begin! But first to harrass you on the radio tonight will be most satisfactory!

I love you...

You believe me....right? :unsure:

What did everyone here do with there extras? I mean, did you sell them or give them away or what?

I had a total of approximately 5 sets of nearly everything, both of my parents were in and they are asleep and my niece was in and she is also asleep. I kept one full set for research and sold the rest on ebay, minus the sylabi (sp) I kept all of those as they are personal and my neices children may want them one day, just to see, to learn from their notes, just to have. Made quite a profit. I've got tapes, music, Corps teachings, Univ of Life etc, etc...was in a long time and I got everything that "had to do with the bible" when mom fell asleep and when Ann did as well.

I sold on ebay because I figured that people that do that specific search on ebay are already looking for that material because they are already exposed. They might as well get what they want. It's not like some unsuspecting lop will accidently search Wier#lle. The chances of them getting the stuff with a general search is also slim. My opinion.

ASpot, I think I agree with WW and Kathy. You are profound, have a great heart, easy to read, refreshingly honest, just plain loveable and you have the cutest little kitten avatars in the world! Thanks for starting this thread it has been quite enlightening.

So now that I'm done schmoozing (spelling nazis just stay away from that one!). Lets see if I have two cents in the couch cushions...

I think that you and Kathy have touched on something here that I hadn't considered. Involvement with a cult, especially one that was so powerful in so many ways changed our overall outlook on a great many things. I think that our experience was different than many cult survivors. Our cult was huge in comparison. It was not isolated to one geographic location or a limited number of people. TWI was a massive organization. Its leader was actually known by some really big names. We had no real reason as young people to doubt their dogma or to believe that they were a cult. Consequently the overall experience made us less tolerant of religious organizations having any control in our lives. Even the big groups hold no intimidation factor with the majority of ex wayfers. We've all been there done that and have tons of t-shirts to prove it!

So as we wander out into the world befuddled, scarred and determined we find ourselves still seeking a spot to call "home" or a nitch to fill. As we search for just the right place we investigate and discard numerous possibilities that before TWI would have been more than adequite but after TWI now seem tarnished or calloused or simply lacking. Where once we might have overlooked little doctrinal differences as just that; today we see them as glaring contradictions that we cannot stomach. We now have, like it or not a huge bible based repertoire of knowledge in our heads that we use, right or wrong to gage all other doctrines that we hear. We weigh them and balance them and if they are found wanting, we decided if we can live with less or if we keep searching.

I think that something that many here tend to forget or choose to ignore is that we weren't in TWI we were TWI. We gave it its strength of numbers, we gave it its head knowledge (corps research papers), we gave it its arrogance, we didnt do these things because we didnt want to do them. We were young and looking for something that would help us to make our mark. TWI offered the best of two worlds, to be big with both God and man at the same time and all you had to do was give away your soul and sear your conscience. And for a time all of us did it. We all stayed, we all continued to fellowship, we all continued to attend and run classes and witness and anything else they asked of us. It wasnt until the MOG, the man that we gave our lives to was found to be wanting did we say "No more" and leave. But upon our leaving (whether it was by choice or not) our departure deflated TWI because it lost most of what sustained it, the robotic numbers that were willing to exchange part of themselves to become the better robot.

Ok...so I found a dollar in the cushions...

...Lord, how I wish I never ate that cod.

I read our poem to the family and they laughed so hard that one of 'em fell off of the bed! Then she said "What's cod?" This of course initiated another round of laughter.

So today were cooking up some banana boats! I'll let ya'll know how they turn out. I got vetoed on the hausenpheffer, God forbid we eat a bunny rabbit, got called a "hillbilly" for even mentioning it! I did get the ok for the fried apples and bacon...even though "we" dont eat cute little piggies! Gimme a break! What they dont know wont hurt 'em! Hehehe...now to find a muskrat!

Should have seen the reaction when I told 'em I was waiting for a "hush puppies" recipe. "OH MY GOD YOU EAT PUPPIES!!!!???? I swear I couldn't breath I was laughing so hard! My response when I could speak again? "They are soooo good fried up in little chunks with onion and garlic. Just wait till you try the kitty tacos next week...delish!" Yup...I got some really good looks for that one!

The next line in the poem....

I never knew I could hold so much...

I'm never going to retire. :P

But I love Cracker Barrel's breakfast.

And as George Jones said...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5LduVGA67o

Outside of the cheese referrence, I've never heard of a Cracker Barrel...might I assume its a diner?

Beautiful! Wonderful to put the faces to the names! Lovely to finally see Rascals face and Sushi's as well. But I gotta ask...didn't Rascal hold the camera even once? That's pretty sneeky Abi.

The pics also bring back fond memories from my childhood. My entire family is from Michigan I'm the only West Coast baby. But I've been in all of the lakes (even if it was only my feet in Superior) but they are beautiful!

Great observation, Another Spot! Maybe that's God’s detoxification process for removing TWI’s poison.

As always the "cure" for the poison is so much more simple than the poison itself.

A theology that involves ignoring sin avoids making God’s ways our ways. It ignores that God’s ways are righteous. It ignores His sovereignty. This is the ultimate result of twi theology, an idol of knowledge that ignores both God and His ways.

Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Whether twi doctrine agrees with this or not, the fact remains that God does prove us by way of our choices. Perhaps this is the real meaning of our twi experience.

I was just sitting here thinking when I re-read this section of your post and it came to me that the theology of TWI did in fact de-throne God. God was not sovereign it was our believing that was supreme. Our believing could move mountains and tell God exactly where and what was going to happen at any given time.

Then I couldnt help but apply that verse to my life as I have been in doubt a bit lately. To be reminded that it is God that does the proving and not any man is very comforting. To know that we stand proved and approved before Him and Him alone by what is in our hearts and how we walk in Christ, is liberating. A wonderful person recently reminded me it is our responsibility to do good to all and give to God the injustices that are done. In this manner we serve Him. I think that keeping his ways first regardless of personal discomfort is walking in love. Something TWI didn't really teach. They talked about it but when put into practice they werent even "loving' to those that they knew were in the household.

This is a cool thread!

I loved it. It was very entertaining. Nothing ever compares to the book so I stopped comparing them years ago. But I really liked it. I thought that they did a pretty good job of developing the characters even more especially considering the time constraint.

What a poison it is - this particular idol of knowledge. What deluded thinking - that as we "mastered" PFAL stuff, we believed we gained mastery over anything that mattered. As Chatty said, "The more you think this stuff through the more it's a wonder any of us got out with any of our brains intact. What a bunch of numbnuts."

Perhaps the real deadly power of an idol is its ability to blind the idolater to its presence or true identity. Or that it can poison our attitudes, twist our motives and inflate our egos. I think an idol is perceived more as a means to an end than as an object of worship. It is a way to get what I want.

What an intiguing line of thought and an incredible statement T-Bone! I think that perhaps to some

"this particular idol of knowledge" is exactly as you propose a "means to an end" not an object of worship as we perceive worship. In TWI the more we mastered PFAL the more we knew exactly what to say to move up the ladder to gain more power.

The first chapter of Romans talks about what happens to believers when they leave the true God that they know and begin to worship false idols.

The record shows that when believers forget or neglect to thank God for what He has done for them their thoughts become unstable. They then turn the truth of God into a lie and begin to openly worship the creation more than the Creator. They adamantly profess that they are correct in all that they do and refuse to be told otherwise. Sound like "someone" you know?

It is hard to thank God for anything when you are too busy acquiring head knowledge. God is love, not knowledge. There is a great line in a song that I love "We're just here to learn to love Him" Once upon a time I would have adamantly disagreed with that statement. But today....maybe it isn't so wrong after all.

“To reduce the Christian experience to acquiring a bunch of Bible knowledge really puts a damper on God's influence. It would be like having a photograph of God and limiting our experience of Him to only that picture. The experience is all one-sided. The picture will not respond to us, it will not answer a question or a prayer. There's no commerce between hearts, no exchange of emotions. Not much of a relationship and no interactive process is possible. My Christianity is stale and limited to only my input…How different it is as we draw near to God, as we respond to Him and He to us.”—T-bone.

Exquisite.

Indeed...Exquisite! TWI tried to do just this..make God an object that responds to our "believing" like a car does to pressure on the gas pedal. God was a machine, something that gave His Son to die for us so that we could be more powerful than His Son was. God didnt do it because He loved us but so that we could "Know" that we know....They talked about love but didnt have to manifest it because they were "under grace". They talked about God but as ASpot said to get close to God or to do his will you had to be able to work the formulae and like some other religions if you didn't kneel at the right time or say the right thing "just so" then you had to start all over again, after you fixed what you messed up by not doing it right the first time. Wow what a vicous circle!

I recall whilst in rez - probably at a Corps Night - or maybe it was a CN later - that LCM announced Rosie was his (what did he say?) deputy? He also said that each of the three then trustees had appointed a deputy who would assume the responsibilies of the person they were deputising. Rosie was LCM's and I remember him announcing this. They all reviewed their choice of deputy every year.

Doesn't explain how she got to be chosen as deputy, however. Except that she knew of the sexual assaults. And did not expose the evil.

Now I find this to be interesting information. I had no idea that they made "deputies". What a very interesting and insulting way of telling the rest of the BOT that he did not consider them or would not consider them for his replacement were it necessary. (Which of course it was).

I dont know for fact and am most certainly speculating but from what I have read on this thread, I surmise that perhaps Rosie was holding the information about Craig as an ace in the hole and maybe even used it as blackmail a little. Drawing that thought out just a little further, maybe all of the "crimes" have not yet come to light and this is why Criag stays near but not to near to HQ. Just thinking.

ASpot...so much has already been said and I dont' feel the need to repeat it. You got him home, not just to a house but back into your arms and life. He was always in your heart but for a short time he strayed from your life and now returns. So beautiful, so warm, and so perfectly godly...this unconditional love is exactly what the love of God in Christ is all about. You and your son are living, breathing examples of how we should all be towards one and other in the body of Christ. Rejoyce my friend, it is always a day of rejoycing when a child returns home.

I think when folks talk about the old days of twi when there was love and better times oft times it was what you just said. They were so thrilled to be stripped of personal bondage and come to the place of knowing they were worthy of God's love that other things weren't always apparent.

My goodness I leave the thread for a couple of days and all of this wonderful stuff gets posted!

T-Bone that last paragraph with the picture analogy is priceless!

Kathy and Larry, I couldn't agree more on the idea that our "head knowledge" and TWI's drive to give us bigger heads certainly hindered our ability to love or express true enthusiasm born of love for pretty much anything that would involve interaction with others outside of TWI.

What do you think, is this gorging on "knowledge" cause the Pharisees and perhaps their religious counterparts throughout history cause them to forget "why" they wanted to serve God's people to begin with?

Happy Birthday bro! Have a great day, live it up and enjoy!

quote: Now mind you this is only my experience in law enforcement for 17 years and in one County in one State.

Are you an officer, or a dispatcher?

quote: In my experience domestic abuse cases run about 60/30/10. 60% of the time the man starts it, 30% of the time the woman starts it and 10% of the time it's a mutual slug fest.

Just to be clear about something: when I said the woman initiates it, I meant verbally, not physically.

Officer. A couple of times in my career I have had to take a 'desk' job because of an injury, (like now) but the bulk of my career was spent in the trenches or training others.

Now you're getting into causational factors. Certainly a woman may confront a man because he just came home drunk at 2 am and has nothing left of his paycheck...and she "starts" a fight. Or a woman may ask the man if he will watch the children while she goes shopping and he refuses because they will interrupt the game and she "starts" a fight. In my experience many times the man initiates a fight by what he does or does not do and then the woman starts verbalizing, eventually she has to yell to get the mans attention. It escalates. Now of course this is not always what happens...but in a majority of cases when traced back to the actual beginning...

It is possible that these women that "start" the fights are asking for or expecting something unreasonable from the man. And then the man gets frustrated because of this and verbally "strikes" back at the woman. Physical abuse almost always starts with verbal abuse.

As I said this is only from my experience.

When I say "mutual slug fest" I dont necessarily mean a physical slug fest, it can be a verbal slug fest as well. But I was vague and I apologize for that.

Well, truth...I didn't ASK all of them. Maybe 90% is a bit high. I think there's this public perception that all domestic disputes are the man's fault; that men are guilty until proven innocent, and they're NEVER proven innocent because it happened behind closed doors and we gotta keep these uppity men in their place and...you get the idea.

In 1 Peter it says that a wife's "good conversation" (behavior) can cover for the husband if he's off. This happens a lot, thank God. But this implies that a wife can help a situation go south as well. I think this happens a lot, too. I just want a level playing field.

Also, full disclosure is not a biblical concept. People have a right to privacy in their lives.

In my experience domestic abuse cases run about 60/30/10. 60% of the time the man starts it, 30% of the time the woman starts it and 10% of the time it's a mutual slug fest. Now mind you this is only my experience in law enforcement for 17 years and in one County in one State. Statistics in other areas or country wide may be different. But I do agree with you that to be guilty until proven innocent is wrong (Well unless of course a person was actually caught in the act). What happens behind closed doors is a mystery most of the time, however a preponderance of the evidence often sheds light on an otherwise dark situation.

All of us would like a level playing field in all areas of our lives. Unfortunately for us we are stuck in this world until Christ returns or we die, whichever comes first. Because of that we have to deal with the injustices that are here while not becoming part of the problem. A difficult balance to be sure.

As far as a 'right to privacy' I agree as long as what a person or persons are doing do not in anyway endanger the well being of each other or others outside of the major parties. As Mr. Ham has said "it really does effect more people than just "you"." Again speaking from a very personal point of view and experience....he is absolutely right! I am not infering that you are abusive just following the train of thought. And thank you for answering me.

I swear when I read that name I don't see the first "r" and it cracks up. :lol:

(not trying to get this relegated to the dungeon either)

Well my sweet friend then stop surfing the gutter!

Does it have a bridge?

Rosie and Donna having a gay relationship ? I dont believe Ms Donna's mind is that evil to open up to that type of behavior, plus she knows she must be strong for her kids

Believe what you like bro! "Ms Donna" doesn't need to be "evil" to be gay. If she is...well grand...at least she isn't living in a cover marriage with LCM. Be strong for her kids...kids generally respect a parent that is honest with them about their orientation. Now the rest of the stuff that comes out of Bizarro Way world I'm not even going to comment on because George already has said it...

2 lbs. of haddock or cod (I buy the fish marked for chowder - not filets - much less expensive)

I just had to laugh when I read those words. I'm lucky if I can find a frozen piece of fish, let alone any specific cut. hehehe I gets what I can.. Great looking recipe tho...gonna have to try it out. Might change the egg and flour to beer batter tho.

I just love this forum!!

John, I do realize that the post in question was written in 2005 and written during the heat of an argument. And I do want to give you the benefit of the doubt so I am asking you just as Exie is, "do you really believe that?" I would add "still?"

Funny that would come from someone that says a

woman need a good clocking every now and again

Please someone tell me that John did not say this. Tell me I am misunderstanding...please.