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I hadn't thought of it that way. After all he "loves" them and is just trying to heal them. So they trust him....and he violated that trust. Truly sick....pond scum is cleaner and more desirable.

This is something that I have often wondered. Was he ever meek to God? Did he ever really want to serve Him? Did he start out with the right intentions and simply fall pray (very early on) to his own demons. Or was it all a dog and pony show right from the get go? I totally understand what you are saying about your Uncle. I have a friend that uses scripture to not only prove her personal doctrine of bondage but to prove that we all should live in a control freak society with her as the ultimate authority on God. In fact if you contradict her "doctrine" then she claims that you are possessed and "God" told her so. She reminds me of LCM in his hay day.

We thought it was. It was quite an exciting day.

Well when you put it that way.... He was a false prophet. Any good he might have done was by accident. I think that he had to steal his material because he was incapable of truly researching for himself. It would not surprise me one bit if his original plans for the Corps did not include any sort of research paper, but when he realized he could get even more from these innocent God loving "keeds" then he incorperated it. What was it he said about phycics? Something about "there has to be some truth in what they say or nobody would believe anything they say". Something like that...you get the gist. Any words that he spoke that were true came from somebody else. Out of his mind came concepts and words that were suspect at best. Wolf in sheeps clothing. Some things he did prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt...God can supercede anyone and God can work in any weather and God can heal all wounds and God was not a part of vp's life in a positive way.

You've always been the gal I want on my side...from the first time I met you. I would however love to spar with you. The stuff I know is a mixture of both. It is neither Karate or Judo. It is simply what is practical for the Police to utilize on the street. So it is kind of like "scapping". I can really mix it up. In fact the last guy I caught trying to slash a little 8 ir 9 year old girl with a box cutter ended up with his jaw broken in three places. (Have you ever seen anyone's jaw break between the two front teeth? It splits the palet in half...makes for some really strange talking and looks really cool when it is all wired back together again.) I guess I'm not harmless...oh well...I am loveable! :wub:

((((((BB)))))) There are no words to express my deep sorrow for your loss, or the pride I feel for you in your stauch desire to move forward and your deep love and trust in God. Such a profound mixture of both tragedy and strength of character. God Bless your beautiful heart!

Bumpy, I think you are being sarcastic so I'm going to go with that. Except for the comment about "men". Protecting oneself or making certain that you can protect yourself (and/or your children) does not automatically assume that the defence would be against men. It is true that the majority of attacks are made by men, but this does not make any of us vigilantes out for vengence against all men. I realize you did not say "all" but it is inferred. Personally I would love to go to Iraq, but not because I want vengence against men, all men did not hurt me so I do not blindly blame them all. If you have been reading, and I think that you have, you certainly have noticed that many of us blamed ourselves for being attacked. We often feel like we are vulnerable hence all of the weapons and training. We feel less vulnerable and weak this way. If it happens again then it wont be our fault. Do you understand? Its not vengence, its healing, its stronger, its how we have to deal with it. It's how we say "Never again".

Very impressive Rascal. Now I know that I'm not going to be pushing any of your buttons anytime soon. :)

Get a Sig Sauer the grips are smaller. Or you could just come live with me. I really don't take a whole lot of cr@p anymore. But like Rascal and probably everyother sane mother, I fight like crazy to protect those little rug crawlin' pains in my tail. Now I'm raising my grand neice as well. Her mother, my actual neice passed away and her three children were split up. The two girls got sent to live with their dad and the youngest her boy went to my sis, his grandmother. Eventually dad realized that two teenage girls were a bit much for him and he asked me to get Crissy from the juvenile detention center where he had sent her on Easter. She has lived with me ever since. She still has nightmares and is still angry with God for taking her mom. It is difficult at her age to understand much through the pain and loss. But it is getting better.

Roses, welcome to the Spot! I have no magic answers either. I don't think that anyone does have all the answers but it is good that you are asking. It does take a while to determine what you really do believe. And I encourage you to re-examine everything. Cat has a good idea on how to determine what is good for you and what was cr@p. That is what I did, mind you because of other things it took me about 10 years to sort through enough just to come back to GS. (I was here once before but I wasn't quite ready yet) Lots of folks are ready to help you work through things here. Or to leave you alone to work it through yourself. And Rascal is right if you are asking, then you probably arent.

Thanks, that is just the way that I felt.

I guess I over do it... I have an extensive knife "collection" and have taken the classes on how to use 'em. I have a 9mm, a shotgun and a .22 long rifle, for "hunting" of course. I not only know "self defense" techniques but I know them well enough to train both the Police and the Air Force in my state. That includes "baton" defense/offense. I go to the gym 3-5 times a week and bench press more than should be expected and I can run without stopping or slowing for an hour and a half. (Could probably do more if needed) I live in a state where killing someone who invades your home is considered "self defense" and is not prosecuted. In fact clear cut cases of "self defense" do not even get considered regardless of if they are in the home or not. I'm with Dot, if its my day to die, then I will die fighting.

Alright this may sound like a strange comparison so bear with me... In light of parents passing on their own "tauma reactions" to their children.... I have a cat (please don't roll your eyes) she is a darling of a cat. But her mother had been badly abused. I rescued her from a burlap sack that was going to be pitched into the river. Anyway momma cat is long since gone, but her daughter...my little Arora is still with me. She is by far the most skiddish cat that I have ever owned, with the exception of her mother. I understood why mom was so skiddish...she had been horribly abused and would only come to me and my niece. But Roar what was her problem? I have never harmed that cat...none of my cats. I was at a loss. Then one day while observing her with a litter of kittens another person (my roommate) entered my bedroom where she had given birth. She immediately began to shuffle the kittens back under the bed. She was fanatical about it. I thought she was going to give herself a stroke it was that frantic. I even helped her but of course the kittens had tasted the "outside" world of the room and would not remain confined. Finally to save my poor cat the anurism that she was certainly driving herself towards and I told my roommie to leave the room. At which time she began to calm down. But after that anytime that he would pass my room she would once again begin to panic. All the while talking to her children. Eventually the kittens began to recognize his step and would dart for cover at the sound. She had effectively passed on her phobia. The kittens needed special attention by me as they grew or they would have all been to traumatized to give away. I don't dare get her fixed. She finds completion in having children in fact she would go absolutely nuts if she could no longer have them. But my other cat Marishka raises them for the most part so that the condition no longer continues. It's funny that my other cat noticed the problem and actually made Roar back away from the babies until they were old enough to "think" for themselves. So I can see how a human mother could train her children "trauma response", without really having much of a true conscous thought about it. And also thinking that they are actually helping their children. Was that too much of a stretch?

Well then I guess those that love you will have to stand up for you until you can see what we see! Just saying what I see...and I am glad that you stuck around 'cause I have learned quite a bit from you and hope to learn more.

Ok Rascal love how about this for "attributing and how I see you" You are an amazingly intuitive woman with a heart of gold. You are gentle and caring a woman of incredible strength who isnt afraid to stand up for the weaker folks who would shelter under her formidable wings. And no I aint blowing smoke! And Abi you are just as gentle and full of understanding. Your heart just pours over onto everyone. Your honesty and straight forward way of thinking has at many times put me in awe of you. Dont you think for one second that you are not capable of staring down Attila the Hun. Dear Exie, I see in you a profound gentleness and fierce determination mixed with incredible strength of character. I think that you would be the type of person that could bring a room to silence upon entering. And Cat, wow you just blow me away with your "in your face" confidence and then you have that soft squishy side that makes you loveable. What can I say ya'll are super! And if you are having trouble facing some stupid bully just let me get my paws on 'em. I'll shake 'em up a bit! That's for certain!

Darn straight there was something wrong with it! It was wacked!

I don't know if that is "rape" but it sure does sound pretty darn close if it isnt. If I were you and planning on having anymore curtain climbers then I think I would pack a gun into the O.R. Just to keep things even. I absolutely hate hospitals myself and I can completely understand the "unexplainable" reason. But that is for another day. Abi- sweetie I cannot relate. I have five children but they are all adopted. I cannot bear children of my own. But this sounds horrific! And it does help explain why my mother had so much trouble with her children. Her first husband was a real prick!

Why yes it is...and I like to apply that to Catfish, YUM! Wait a minute....this isn't the Kitchen! OOOooops...sorry!

The ptsd expanation really puts some pieces of the puzzle together. Thanks!

And of course I'm huggin' back Rascal! Ooohh now it really is becoming a "group". I understand...but I'll be glad to give you a hug when you are ready. 'Cause I really love you...and I can relate, I've been that mad at times too. And we are happy to have you! My good friend Doojie also wants to be in on the group hug! Welcome Dooj!

Oh boy do I feel like I'm on the shore of a very big sea right now. But I'm willing to wade in. Having not read either Enoch or Jasher yet I can only go on what ya'll have put into your posts...which is just enough to make my head spin..thank you very much! So here's my .01 1/2 cents...cant quite dig up the full .02 at this point. In all of man's various mythologies, Greek, Roman, Norse, Celtic etc. They all have several things in common. They have a pyramid style organization. They have a great deal of infighting and cross breeding or incest. They have "half" god "half" man beings that are sometimes benevolent (Like Jesus) and sometimes evil (like the titans). All mythologies boast a large number of mixed creatures, like the Pegasus (winged horse) the Centaur (body of a horse melded with the torso and head of a man) there are way too many to mention. In the Celtic mythos there are a large number of half human or human hybrids, much more so than other mythologies. I'm not certain why this is, also in the Celtic their gods are much more benevolent than any other country except the native Americans (there are way to many paralels between these two). I have always believed that all of these creatures did exist at one time. All myth begins with some amount of truth. But would these gods represent the good guys or the bad guys? Or perhaps both depending on the country? Or depending upon...? Enoch: 10Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees. This verse alone would explaing God's big problem with sorcery. The witch of Endor comes to mind...as well as Merlin of English or more correctly Celtic lore. 10They elevated me aloft to heaven. I proceeded, until I arrived at a wall built with stones of crystal. A vibrating flame (20) surrounded it, which began to strike me with terror. (20) Vibrating flame. Literally, "a tongue of fire" 11Into this vibrating flame I entered; 12And drew nigh to a spacious habitation built also with stones of crystal. Its walls too, as well as pavement, were formed with stones of crystal, and crystal likewise was the ground. Its roof had the appearance of agitated stars and flashes of lightning; and among them were cherubim of fire in a stormy sky. (21) A flame burned around its walls; and its portal blazed with fire. When I entered into this dwelling, it was hot as fire and cold as ice. No trace of delight or of life was there. Terror overwhelmed me, and a fearful shaking seized me. (21) In a stormy sky. Literally, "and their heaven was water" (Charles, p. 81). Weren't we taught that the firmament held the left over water? That it was a hole in this firmament that caused the flood of Noah? So is this saying that this crystal palace exists in the firmament? And that it is seperated from heaven by a tongue of fire like the Garden is from the world? Is this Crystal palace the place that the Norse called Valhalla or the Greeks call Mt. Olympus? Hmmm...just thinking out loud. It is interesting to me that the Norse gods were actually mortals that had to always eat these special apples so that they wouldn't age. But then they expected that most of them would die during their version of the apocolypse, ragnorok (sp). The book of Enoch was used heavily by the Early Catholic Church fathers...so why was it discredited? What in the book scared them so badly that they felt the need to discredit it? Was it this information about the true nature of the fallen angels? Wow I'm just full of questions. No answers right now...sorry.

Yes it is...now that I've stopped being so emotional... Woo Hoo! Are we on a roll this morning....any other takers on the group hug?

That makes three.... :)

Ahh Jonny, You know that you are invited to any group hug! Everyone is! But watch the "touchy feely" part. Ok...we got two for the group hug...anyone else?

Jesus started the ultimate group hug! :) And this is one we should all join in. Incredible post BTW Sun... Wow! This just nails it...the utter revulsion that one feels crawling under their skin, like a stink that just wont scrub off no matter how much blood you draw. It's a feeling of disgust that is directed at your own life, you look in the mirror and see a person that bears the face of someone that you once knew and perhaps even loved. But the person behind the face is afraid and ugly, completely devoid of any redeemable characteristics. Some people desperately try to erase the face in the mirror, to change it beyond any further recognition. Others embrace the evil thing...and become it. And it really isn't the outside that should concern anyone, because so many things can hide behind masks. It's the inside, the sickening rot that starts in the quiet peaceful recesses of the soul and grows. If left unchecked it can become as profuse as a berry bush. It will intertwine itself into every crack and crevise of your life, sticking thorns into all that was once good and staining your soul with its deadly fruit. Before you know it the face in the mirror has something dark and sad growing behind it. It took no real effort for this cancer to be there but it will take years of hard work trying to cut it out again. But the stain...it always remains...there is never enough bleach. But God and Jesus Christ can heal it all. They can make the thorns die rendering them useless. Their love can cause a person to love that face again. They can breathe life back into those that feel that they would be happier if they were dead. Death would cause the pain and humiliation to stop. But God can cause it to stop too. And He should be our first choice not our second. I probably do...but don't tell anyone, it will ruin my reputation.