Eyesopen

Absolutely! Very good point here... Great analogy in the last post as well. Oh, and this other thing about you speaking up and being loud and long...well I would not presume to debate you....

Well....he said it right... <_<

ASpot, Thank you for sharing that amazing story! What an incredibly strong and loving heart that you must have my dear! To ask for and then willingly accept that kind of responsibility at such a young age speaks volumes. You are so right concerning the ability for someone who has not "been there done that" to truly comprehend what goes on in a persons mind and heart that has actually experienced it. I have actually met people that tell fish stories or "fake" it so that they can claim to comprehend. I am not certain what benefit they receive for their deceit. Your explanation puts into focus why we all come here to GS. Because we have all shared the same or related abuser and abuse. That is why no-one else would understand us when we spoke to friends about it. That is why some people that were never in TWI or were not abused by TWI can ask us "Why didn't you just leave?" That is the same thing that people who live in abusive marraiges hear. Its because people that only apprehend do not understand the level of control that is exercised. I had a Norm@n R*ckwell type of childhood so I cannot comprehend what you went through. I did endure an abusive marriage although until recently I did not realize just how abusive. And of course I had TWI abuse as well but certainly not to the extent of some folks. It's strange to me that I could avoid the majority of direct abuse in TWI only to walk out and marry someone who is 100 times worse. (shaking my head...again) Love that stuff in Galatians, the Bible really does fit together...just not the way that twi taught us it did.

I believe this is one of the records that the Roman Catholics use to "justify" (bad word) their collection of relics. There are a few other records, I couldn't tell you where they are right now that document the touching of just a prophets garment healed the person.

Rascal darlin' I just love that story! I know that chuckle. The first time that I heard it I thought that I was going insane. But it was clear as a bell. I also understand the temper tantrum although a chuckle was not the appropriate response at the time (I was on a mountain in Tinnie, NM. at the time on my very exciting LEAD adventure). ASpot, ok so now I understand what you are getting at. Your comment about "disrespect" hit a cord with me. According to Romans 1 "disrespect" is one of the first things that a believer does when begins to fall away towards idolatry. I don't mean this to sound like anyone here is an idolater it is just what I have seen in Romans during my studies. TWI by the way was not even close when they taught this chapter. They violated some of their own principals to promote their own doctrine. I know that surprises some of you and probably makes some others mad. Oh well. The thing about Romans 1 is that contrary to what twi taught it is written to standing believers about believers that have fallen away from God. In verse 21 it states "Because that when they knew (ginosko) God (clearly born again) they glorified Him not as God, neither were they thankful." The decline of the believer starts with disrespecting God by not thanking Him for anything and not glorifying (worshipping) Him as God (basically idolatry). Then because they did not worship God or thank Him for anything...verse 21 continues with "but became vain (empty) in their imaginations (thoughts that had no godly substance hence "imaginations") and their foolish heart was darkened. (the seat of their commitment and love became filled with foolish thoughts and lived in darkness, as opposed to the light of God)" If that were not enough verse 22 states, "Professing themselves to be wise (arrogant) they became fools. (not so smart after all)." This chapter has been erroneously applied to the “perished ones”, or the “lost souls”, or to the “devil’s minions on earth”. Because it is difficult for some to conceive that a born again Christian could be capable of these horrible things. But the reference is to those that “know the judgments of God”. It is written to and about those that “ginosko” literally know by intimate experience the judgments of God because they know God. Even I had difficulty believing it. But then I remembered that Jesus was sold out by one of his own disciples and when Jesus was arrested Peter denied him three times in the space of a couple of hours. These are people that spent time with the only begotten Son of God, and yet they were capable of sins of great magnitude. God would not have spent so much time correcting wrong behavior in His people if the behavior were not occurring. When I look at it from that perspective it is not altogether difficult to imagine someone that is a member of the church of the body wandering so far off of the mark. I sometimes need to remind myself that these people think that they are correct, for in their own eyes they are wise and they will be the first ones to tell you so. I think that it is possible to idolize yourself and to perpetrate that same idolatry. This in many ways is what twi did, they promoted the idolatry of vp. To worship idols is not in the believers "nature" but anybody can do things that are outside of their nature for any amount of time. As is easily seen and witnessed to in Romans 1. This "idolatry" was not something that most of us did willingly or even knowingly. But to keep the peace or to fit in or to just not be condemned by people that we cared about and respected many of us turned a blind eye. We were 'bewitched' (as ASpot said to me in a PM concerning this subject). I think that it is very easy to ignore this type of disrespect/idolatry and that is why God admonishes us to not eat with idolatrer, to not share feasts with idolaters, to not attend their "services" and other such stuff. Because it is too easy to just ignore it. It is very subtle. For those that care I did an indepth study of Romans 1 for another project of mine and it was necessary to get the complete context of the verses in question. If anyone is interested in the entire study they can PM me as it is too big to put on a post or even PM to someone it has to go through regular email. Or I could just put it in my blog. I sure love you "guys" a lot!

I would be interested in participating in this.

Dot- that one really spoke to me. I've got no great ministry for healing...not in that manner. But I do understand the idea that "When you are ready, God is ready." He really can and does open a lot of doors and change bunches of things in your life just so you can do what He has designed for you to do. I have said it before and I will probably say it again; God isn't done with us..not by a long shot. Just because twi ended for us that does not mean that God ended for us. He still called us to the body and we still have our jobs to do and we still have to work together to accomplish those jobs. And as W&W said, there are many people with real gift ministries out there that were never recognized by twi, but God does recognize them. Anyway great posts one and all.... :)

It's that bloody onion again! The smell got you right out of that hallway didn't it? Heee ehehhheee So if I'm reading you correctly then knowledge would be a symptom of spiritual abuse? I look at it more like knowledge was one of the baseball bats of spiritual abuse. If I were to say "God told me...." then yes I am using the Lords name in vain but I am also using my knowledge that puffed me up to batter the poor fool that has the displeasure of listening to me at the time. Mind you although I have in the past been guilty of using said bat against someone I felt filthy doing it. I would rather cuss like a sailor than tell someone that God had told me anything. I felt that way then and do now. But the difference is that "then" I was immersed in the lake of dangola that twi spewed. So I did it anyway. It was the knowledge that puffed me up and made me seem smarter and more "spiritual" than I really was. Anyone can use little known scriptures or a good combination of well known ones and sound like a true megaphone prophet of God Almighty. We've all seen it done, some of us to our shame...have done it. I guess I'm not really disagreeing with you or agreeing just looking at it from my perspective. Let me go sit on the couch and think for a few. Love ya! BTW that is an awsome definition!

Todd I really did enjoy the podcast yesterday. My silence should be taken as contemplation of the words and heart being spoken and not of disinterest. These two specific points hit home for me particularly. In the past I have been known to turn to the left side of my brain to analyze (not feel) what another person is saying and that had left me in a pickle at times. More recently I have had an instance where another person, a friend of mine flat refused to see my side or my truth. But considering how in the past that I have failed to see someone elses truth I can hardly blame my friend. It is hard to see another persons truth when you have already decided that yours is the only truth. On the second point I have in the past immediately jumped to conclusions when I read a post or heard a statement spoken. I have for many years tried to consider the other persons words and where they are speaking from before I answer. This often leaves long gaps of silence which few people respect. But I would rather be seen as weak or undecided than judgemental. Everyone has the right to be heard and listened to, I may not agree with what you say, but I will listen to you. I am still assimilating the remainder of your list, but all in all I think that I will find it most helpful to me in many areas of my life. Great stuff Todd! Thank you as well Paw!

Larry: Pardon me for sticking my nose in here but you are both (Larry and Dooj) saying the same thing at least as I read it. You say the above and Dooj said this: "WE are the Body of Christ. We are fallen people - that will be perfected. Larry - I said that there could be an unhealthy part of a body. My point is that there are many members in the Body of Christ. Not all are necessarily healthy members. I think that is the point of the analogy in Corinthians - where it speaks of one part hurting." The Bible does not tell us as you say to dwell upon the flaws but it does admonish us to help those members that are hurting because they do affect the entire body whether anyone likes it or not. Obviously perfection is not attainable in this wreched place, so lets not argue about it shall we? Physically alone our bodies are not perfect, they are flawed. Spiritually we are perfect but spititual perfection does not change the fact that physically or mentally we can get "sick" or hurt. We are told to tend the wounds and help our brothers and sister to heal. But instead of doing what we are admonished to do many are analyzing somebodies pain and telling others how they sould feel. Imagine if you will....you just got a ten penny nail driven into your gut up to the head. You go to the doctor and tell him "ouch it hurts, can you fix it?" But instead of immediately helping you fix the problem and at least understanding that you are in pain and trying to illeviate that pain; he brings in half the staff to discuss just how much pain "they" think you are in or if it hurts at all. Then somebody asks you "How did this happen? Could you have simply moved out of the way? I think that this was your fault so just deal with it. Or better yet just get over it." If you can even begin to understand that analogy then you are on your way to feeling true empathy for some of the victims of VP and the Way. Do these members of the body need healing? Yes. Do they deserve your help? According to the word that is a requirement, not a option. But hey, I'm not walking your walk. I choose to help my bretheren whenever and wherever I can. And that includes everyone here. You dont agree with that? Ok...again not my walk. And I am sorry for contributing to the crazyness here...but I just cant stand it anymore.

Another Dan I get where you are coming from although at this point I'm not in complete agreement with you. But I am willing to keep listening and learning. I for one did not have a great deal of personal contact with VP so my knowledge is limited. So I will continue to read everyone's post and try to put pieces together. If the pieces fit what I do know I will keep them, if they do not fit in my puzzle but sound coharent then I will put them on the back burner for further consideration (or start another puzzle), if they sound like trash...well we all know where those go. Ex 10 and Sunesis- Wow! My mind is still realing from the whole bracelet thing. What an arrogant piece of work! I wish I had known that little piece of information way back in 78. But then again that would mean that I wouldn't know any of you lovely people. So all things still work to the good for those that love God. I was on the field when the motorcycle thing happened and my WOW sister had a friend at HQ so I heard about it. I was not moved one way or the other about it. People get into accidents so what. That is what I thought at the time. I was asked not to tell anyone including our WOW brothers. I thought that was a little strange. But now that little piece of info is fitting nicely into the puzzle. Thanks all for the wonderful posts...please do not let me disturb further discussion....please continue... :)

No Larry, I don't go around like a shark looking for blood. I was kind of "hoping" for some honest debate since the topic was worded in such a manner as to encourage such a thing. And furthermore I was just reading the topic from the line at the top of the page: False Prophet or Good Minister with problems?, wolf in sheep's clothing? So no I did not "add" the words "with problems". I simply read what was written. Sorry if that confused anyone. Too bad you do not wish to debate as Another Dan has. That is fine. I am learning and puting some puzzle pieces together for my own healing, I pray that you also can do the same elsewhere.

I agree the ancients did know something more, or different than what we now know. In my research for my book I found many ancient cultures that seemed to be more in tune with God than we are today. Their societies practiced and exhibited an abundant life of rich prosperity. Unlike the Canaanites they were not corrupt in their riches on the contrary many ancient cultures operated many of the basic principals that we as a society have to learn in "special" classes, things like charity, and the care of the elderly and disabled and community child rearing was a big thing in many cultures as well. All of these principals are spoken of in the bible as signs of a righteous man or a healthy Godly society. Somehow that knowledge was lost or perverted by "other gods" and those that worshipped them. Including the book of Enoch and its many lost secrets of the ancient world and of Angels. You are so right about what they selectively decide is literal and what is figurative. I ran into that as well in my research when I came across some ancient humans that had been misclassified. I'm beat I'll pick this up tomorrow. Good night everyone!

You are joking right?

"Pimps" of course. (For those less street savy that's "Newports". They are called "pimps")

Ahh sweetie I didn't start it but thank you for thinking so anyway. I wish I had thought of it but the credit for this one goes to exwaycorps. But I am having fun in here! Hmmmm....does that mean I am a marshmallow after all?

I know for some folks it was a little less logical. Some just didn't want to feel like they had lost "everything" so they clung to the one thing that was universal to all PFAL. That need to hang on to the past does fade with time. But for some the trauma of having TWI ripped away from them by some unfeeling MOG was just to tough to handle without "something" to take with them. By "stealing" the class they felt that they were striking back for having the twigs, the fellowships etc stolen from them.

I just knew that video cam was a bad idea! <_< :lol: Glad you didn't mention seeing me pic my nose, that would have been embarassing...ooopps! True enough tho, love is a lot of things. And yes you can let your hair down around me too. What can I say? We grow old if we forget how to play like a child...so go discover something else and never grow up. :P BTW Exwaycorps- good idea!

Actually George these help me to stay even keeled so to speak. II Thessalonians I:6: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you. Romans 2:6: Who (God) will render to every man according to his deeds. And they give me enough "back up".

And a good .02 cents it is... This would explain a great deal.. Like the fact that pyramids are found in so many ancient cultures, as well as structures that resemble Stonehenge, and the cave paintings and myths and "god" structure that is found all over the world. In the bible the immediate big difference between God and the other gods is form. God is spirit the others have a physical form. After that difference comes the "benefits" or abilities of the God. Certainly if they manipulated DNA and made new creatures they would be seen as very powerful. Also if they could and did manipulate DNA then causing a good crop to grow or not would be of little consequence to them. God does not normally intervein so directly in earthly matters. So His power would have seemed infinitesimal to early man. They could see these gods and they could see the results of their gene splicing. This is quite plausable.

So you have a differing opinion. Excellent. This is a thread asking if we think about vp being a false prophet or good minister with problems, so please state your side or your story.

I take it that you don't believe the account?

I guess I missed all of that excitement. I joined the Corps after he had passed, so I got the joy of the next generation under the yoke of POP. I must say your account along with Skyriders certainly puts some pieces together for me. What a piece of camel dung!

You asked for it: Rascal you are an amazingly intuitive woman with a heart of gold. You are gentle and caring a woman of incredible strength who isn’t afraid to stand up for the weaker folks who would shelter under her formidable wings. And no I ain’t blowing smoke! Abi you are just as gentle and full of understanding. Your heart just pours over onto everyone. Your honesty and straight forward way of thinking has at many times put me in awe of you. Don’t you think for one second that you are not capable of staring down Attila the Hun? Exie, I see in you a profound gentleness and fierce determination mixed with incredible strength of character. I think that you would be the type of person that could bring a room to silence upon entering. Catcup, wow you just blow me away with your "in your face" confidence and then you have that soft squishy side that makes you loveable. Doojable you are so much like me…I never thought the world could handle two of us…I love you gal! ChattyKathy sweetie I just love to watch you grow! Word Wolf you always have the information necessary when needed. Way too cool! Jonny Lingo-speaking of cool! You are awesome…but don’t hide your heart so much. Dot Matrix you’re a powerful force of compassion and courage. Year2027 I just love the way you just step outside of the box and come up with some very profound thoughts. Suda- the kind and considerate lady. You just make me feel comfortable. Temple Lady, your wisdom and insight are a continual source of learning for me. I just love it when you share. Belle your personal kindness towards me will never be forgotten. It is the same kindness that oozes into your posts. Nottawayfer you are like an old friend that brings continuous joy to my heart. Another Spot you are also like an old friend but you help me dig the change out of my couch and understand what it all means. T-Bone you make me think in directions that I didn’t think were possible. Ductape you are always in the background but a gentle presence all the same. Ok that’s enough for one post! I don’t want anyone thinking that I’m a giant marshmallow! :o <_< :P (Yup I took a couple from another thread. Didn't see any reason to type 'em again.)

So basically he was wacked right from the get go. What did Dottie ever see in him? She seemed like such a nice lady. Rotten teacher... but a nice lady. I am really pleased that God kept that man away from me. From what little I did see up close of the man, I was not favorably impressed. But I had wondered, as I said if he had just spoiled with time. And you have answered my question. Damn shame...can you just imagine if he had been for real...if he had been a real man of the one true God? What a ministry that would have been. *Shakes her head -'cause she still hasnt found the right smiley-guy that does that for her*