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That is incredibly good news! Congratulations!

Jeff if I had time to tell you the entire story behind this guy and all that he did...but I thank you for taking me at my word with what little I have told you and how little you actually know me. That is something that I personally havent experienced in quite a while. Thank you. Truly some of the folks in that twig would have probably resorted to violence had I not "stolen" them away and he did not fight me at all in the matter. He was probably glad to see us all go. As it was a few years later (after I had officially left) he kicked my aging mother out of twig because she wouldn't stop talking to 10 of her 11 children, including me. He was a real gem! You know that hypocrite had the huevos to attend her wake? Grrr!!! Ok so...sorry about the derail...continue on...

Join the club. So Jeff wants some stories huh? Ok, I've got a few minutes... One time in band camp...wait...wrong story....Ok here we go... One winter not too many years before I departed, I was attending a fellowship with mom just to be with mom. The fellowship folks suggested that we go out and do some pre-"ho ho" caroling. Our TC got out a Christmas song book and passed it around. "Let's choose some songs to sing". It was all very cozy. We had all known each other for many years and although I had been in the Corps I was not trying to take over anything (I was as I said on my way out). But my indifference allowed my TC to be somewhat comfortable with me there. Anyway, several fellowships passed and each time the caroling idea was brought up it was promptly forgotten by the TC. Finally the entire fellowship cornered him after twig one night and asked him if we were going to go caroling together or not as Christmas was fast approaching. Basically he told us that we didnt sound good enough to go out caroling and he would be embarrassed to be seen with us. He was very good at acting superior. One could not be seen in public if one was not dressed correctly, including the expensive shoes and if one opened their mouth one must not draw disfavorable attention to oneself. It was the law here for quite a while. There were lots more laws, like: never get caught by another believer in a casino (So why was he/she there to catch you? The whole "I got revelation" thing didnt fly with me.) We weren't allowed to work in a casino for any reason. But we had to find enough money to purchase our clothing at Macy's. Shortly after this incident I started my own twig again and took a good portion of his twig with me. I didnt ask. I just did it. Who was the BC that was going to argue with me the former AC? Is that elitism or using the power that they gave me to do what I felt was right? So how far am I?

The one thing that twi was very good at was taking everything, good and bad, to the extreme. Hence if it wasnt bad to begin with...you sure were wondering about it later.

It never ceases to amaze me at how old that creep was! Ich!

Yup! What Oak said! And what WG, MStar and WTH said for that matter. Much of this stuff is dependant upon where we were, who was there as well, and how we percieved it.

Could be...but he was probably not the first to try to silence the "other half". The list of 'considered' books that I have seen is amazingly long. And I am fairly certain that it is not complete.

hehehee These guys sound just like the FC that came to our Western state about the same time. What a couple of losers they were!

Have a wonderful day together!

Now that is an interesting statement or just an odd choice of words.

Good point!

Grrrrr!!!

Which is being carnally minded. I'm sorry could you explain this comment to me. "Race" as in an athletic competition, or "race" as in nationality, or something else?

Good to know! So glad we got that sorted out. I get this magazine called Biblical Archeology. It really is incredible. Once a year most of these archeologists get together at seminars throughout the country and present their findings. This last year there was going to be a huge discussion on the Dead Sea Scrolls. Apparently they have once again gained solid access to them despite the conflicts in the region and translations are coming along fairly well. Mostly they have the fragments and really messed up ones to deal with now. They have a new technology that allows them to take pictures of the fragile pieces and put them onto a computer where all of the scholars have acces to them. Sometimes it really makes me wish I had gotten an Archeology degree.

Are you certain that we didn't grow up in the same family?

Perhaps you misunderstood me, I do not discount anything that the Bible says. I simply try to ferret out why there is a contradiction with other histories, or when an account seems "weak" I try to find out, as I said "the rest of the story". The account of Sodom and Gomorrah is incredible and worthy of researching. How God utilized everything and I do mean everything in the immediate area to accomplish His goal is truly awe inspiring. There are archeologists in the world today, many in fact that go around and try to find the physical evidence that the "doubting Thomas's" of society need to believe in the miracle. The whole Red Sea thing has been explained by geology... what God did to make it come to pass. He could have simply made the proverbial bush burn without burning it but that would leave no evidence to convince the next generation or three hundred generations down the road. You see I believed God had many more purposes than those that were immediately obvious for what He did and how He did it.

Ooohh, this looks like fun! I agree and in my opinion I dont think that you should call yourself a Bible scholar if you dont use something else. The Bible is wonderful, please do not misunderstand it is my main source for faith and practice in my life. But I am not decieved, it is not the original God breathed Word. Now if it were the original scroll and I could actually read the bloody thing...well...I wouldnt be using a computer... But it's not. And I am not Jewish so much of the OT is "Greek" to me. That's why when we get into these discussions I really wish Abi were around to help me sort it all out.

I agree, if the Bible gives a different account as in your example of the resurrection of Jesus Christ I also will choose to accept the Bible's account of things. But as has been pointed out to all of us for many many years, the Bible that we hold in our hands had lots of errors. Some of those errors lie in the telling of the history that was written down. I am not in any way saying that God did not inspire men to write. I am saying that what they wrote has changed throughout the centuries because of many things, translations being only one of those things. So what do I do with less obvious historical accounts? I check and recheck every historian that I can find both new and old. I check geological, archeological, astronomical and meterological data from the time in question to determine what happened to the best of my ability. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah for example. Four cities were completely leveled in one day. The Bible says only that God rained fire and destruction upon them. But what really happened? Fire came from heaven, how? Once the entire story is mapped out the simple explanation from the Bible becomes a living breathing event that really can strike fear into the heart of a sinner. The way it was supposed to do to begin with. Did the writer of Genesis write down the story? Yes. Did he write all of the details? No. Perhaps when he wrote the story down he didn't need to write all of the details, because they were already known by his target audience. History was originally passed down verbally in every culture on the planet. When they started writing them down varies with each culture. But I can go and study them out using all of the tools available to me to get the rest of the story. This method helps bring the otherwise tedious OT to life for me. I also agree with you that some historical references are not palatable. But they do make good fodder for poking fun at.

I'm still Christian as well, but I was before I went in, including the Speaking in Tongues gig. But I just can't bring myself to walk into another church except to admire the architecture. I did finally go into a church to actually look at what they had to offer but it was for my young one, not myself. I never felt that other religions held no truth like twi taught. I have throughout the years learned a great deal about God and Jesus Christ from other religions besides those that claim Christianity. In fact I have found that some religions know a great deal more about God than most Christians (well those that I have had contact with physically or over the net). Speaking of the net, I agree that it is a great tool. I was not around when Craig was claiming it was devilish. Actually I found GS on one of my first great adventures on my very own new PC way back in early 2002. And that was most certainly not a bad thing.

That Christian Classics Ethereal library is awsome. I had managed to find the Early Christian Writings in the google. Great stuff, Thanks! I'm not a Catholic but I do believe that the Bible that we have today is unequivocally and forever linked to what the "early Church Father's" did in their time. Hence for me at least an understanding of their interpretation of the teachings of Christ and his apostles is very important stuff to know. Although I must admit that some of the writings of Clement of Alexandria make me think that the man was just slightly unhinged. I guess every Church has to have a few just to keep things interesting. Thanks T-Bone, I just ordered the book. It will save me a bunch of time looking stuff up.

Do you have a web link or a book to recommend to me where I can read this? I'm not doubting you on the contrary you have piqued my interest. I'll google it but I want to be certain that I am looking at the same document as you.

When I was in residence our illustrious leader claimed to be a vegetarian. So we all got to eat vegetarian. He also claimed that we were all too fat and needed sliming. So we all went on a low calorie intake diet. We lost weight and became vegans at the same time. I think I went from a size 8 to a size 4 or 5 in res. And when I went LEAD I pulled my belt even tighter. When I got relocated to Gunnison the benevolent leader there was very much a meat and potato kind of guy. So the first day there several of us vegans promptly got food poisoning from all of the pork and had to spend some time in the hospital. Did any of them ever think any of this stuff through or did they just fly by the seat of their pants? God can heal all wounds. Given time and love you will heal also. :)

Oh! My bad... I guess I'm glad that I missed it. :unsure:

Yup! That's what I'm experiencing.

I saw them in the original...they're in Atlantis and since I'm a shark...well...I snuck a peek into the library without a proper card.