1broken1

"How much can you earn as a Certified Life Coach? - The earning potential you have as a Certified Life Coach with the Life Coach Institute is limited only by how much you choose to work. The average Life Coach in the U.S. today charges from $250 to $750 per month per client. (What you charge will be up to you.) Let’s say you want to earn $4000.00 per month as a coach. To earn that amount you’d need to have just ten full-time clients at an average rate of $400.00 per month, per client. If you charged a higher fee of $650.00 per client, as an example, you would need only six clients to reach your $4,000.00 monthly goal. " Yup, RADICAL METHODS JUST LIKE JESUS WOULD DO!

I have had the same experience - haven't tried all of the above but got the two I tried and had very open discussion. Also spoke with several other friends who have called them (all) to hear the accounts first hand.

I don't want to offend the original (or other) posters either - but I do feel strongly that these programs are counter productive, and as CS noted, 'the same thing over and over.' i think it's been over and over since it was started as EST - I know strong attempts have been made to 'christianize' it, and i don't want to discount the energy and 'good intent' on that, but (IMO) it's based on a bad principles, so ultimately it's not good for people. Here's an interesting quote from the wiki link - "Dr. Michael Langone - Dr. Michael Langone, in an article on Large Group Awareness Trainings (LGATs) (a term which collectively refers to est, Lifespring, and similar encounter groups), states: I know of no research, however, that convincingly demonstrates positive behavioral effects of these trainings. In my opinion, one of the best studies from a methodological standpoint was "Research on Erhard Seminar Training in a Correctional Institution" (Hosford, Ray, E., Moss, C. Scott, Cavior, Helene, & Kerish, Burton. Catalog of Selected Documents in Psychology, 1982, Manuscript #2419, American Psychological Association). Of 313 inmates who volunteered for est training in a Federal Correctional Institution, 150 were randomly selected for the training, while the balance acted as a waiting-list control group and were given scholarships to be used upon release. The groups did not differ on demographics or variables related to criminal history. They were given a full battery of psychological tests and biofeedback instruments, with half of the group pre-tested and half post-tested (to control for the possible contaminating effect of testing). Three-month and 12-month follow-ups were conducted to assess behavioral outcomes (incident reports, furloughs, work performance, etc.). Although the psychological tests reflected some positive change, these self-report changes did not manifest themselves in alterations in physiological measures or in actual behavior. The research and anecdotal evidence seem to indicate that LGATs are very successful at producing positive opinions about the trainings — an outcome that the financial officers of every service business would value. However, whether or not they have a substantial positive effect on behavior that is not due to placebo factors, is still an unanswered question." So the bottom line is it's psuedo-psychology that's not even taken seriously by the psychological community. A very good source for research on LGAT's and all the MANY Lifespring spinoffs is here http://perso.orange.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/

There's another way to look at it, many people don't believe that these programs are the right way to deal with issues in their lives - it has nothing to do with their level of 'maturity' - whatever you mean by that. CS, I'm not saying you are doing this, but it is manipulative to accuse people of not taking a program because they lack maturity and are not willing to take a 'deeper look' into their lives. I've heard this from all the multi-level marketing 'pay-per-use' psycho-babble programs, including the grandpapa of vision quest, EST. For those unfamiliar with the foundation of Momentus, Vision Quest, Life Spring, etc etc - read about it here. It's pretty twisted and the current versions sound ~very similar~. And if you do support Momentus and did have a 'positive experience' with it, I think (IMHO) you have a responsibility to be familiar with it's roots and concepts if you're going to recommend it to others while your are representing Christ. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training Here are some testimonials on Life Spring. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifespring Breakthrough. http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/tw_momentus.htm If you think it has changed since then, read about or ask someone about Momentus / Vision Quest. http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/rec_momensumary.htm And now T0cchini's Breakthr0ugh Training is offered through ACCD, the Associati0n for Christian Character Devel0pment. http://www.accd.org/index.cfm/pages/200 "The Training Series consists of the Discovery Seminar, Breakthrough Training, and The Clearing. We also offer the One Accord Workshop for married couples. Each of these unique experiential events are designed to produce maximum transformational growth in a short period of time. In addition, we have a one day workshop, Imagine.The Clearing is available to Breakthrough Grads. We also have a two day workshop for men, My Father's Eyes." I know I'm boring, but Biblical growth always seems to look like, 'a tree planted by the river of living water.' No one likes to watch a tree grow, or paint dry, it's very boring, and also not 'maximum transformational growth' but it is in the bible, like God having people sit in a desert for 40 years, or Jesus preparing for 30 years to minister for 3. Here is a 2007 initiative from ACCD off their website. "Public Relations Initiative - Walk out Matthew 18 initiative for every online ACCD detractor. Prepare to litigate against those who print defamatory content about ACCD online, and are unwilling to walk out Matthew 18 regarding this offense, and proceed accordingly, as needed." Litigation is completely against 1 Cor 6:1-8, as has come up in the CES/STFI MG discussions. Kind of disconcerting that people want to jump to litigation for online detractors, gosh, like um, hmmm... like this site has been for other groups. This is not like litigation because someone took stole your money or swiped a deed from a widow, this is people threatening to sue other Christians who were involved in the program and airing their concerns to other Christians. These are the people that DEVELOPED the program. If and when people are ready to confront the 'crap' that lives in them churches should take a Biblical approach starting with calling on Jesus. People call Momentus a 'training course' - what does it train you in? What does it train you to do? If it is an approach to pursue Godliness is it found in the Bible? Does it replace the Bible and a relationship with Jesus? Are you instructed to do the Biblical things first, and then do this, or do them both, or primarily focus on the 'training?' Can you picture Jesus as a Momentus trainer or attendee yelling at you and telling you to punch a pillow and yell at your parents? Honestly I cannot. There are plenty of worldly programs that offer 'results' that have nothing to do with the Bible, and programs that claim to change believers and unbelievers alike are certainly not doing it by the transforming of their minds (biblically) or the power of the holy spirit. Churches should teach the Bible and help people get to know Jesus.

Totally, completely, absolutely agree. There's enough 'reality' to bring to God every day without having to force some.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean in the above quote, bold section?

Whether they are elders or not, there is a remedy for confronting the sin publicly, then, as far as expecting an apology there's a least the above standard of verses 20 and 21.

1 tim 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

I've already done that for many years thanks. Are you saying that if I go to church I don't know what life can and should be like?

I can tell you why some in my family and others I know went right from one twi offshoot to the next, and then again - because the doctrine that the trinity is 'demon inspired' and anyone who believes it is 'demonized' prevented them from ever stepping foot in a church. And when I went to church it generally ENDED most communication they'd have with me including my family. Your experience may differ, but the few people I've seen actually make it to 'regular church' (which has totally blessed them) took a long time to get there and I believe God doing a MIGHTY work to remove the BS from their heart. Not just 'right doctrine' arrogance but a lot of fear. That's why people that I know and meet in splinters have really in earnest tried to make them into a 'normal' church but with a unitarian view. They have a hard time singing 'blessed trinity' during worship and having people in church tell them they're not saved. My experience is that I've not had any problem sharing my views in 'normal' church - first, I've changed a lot of my views, second, many of the differences rarely come up because (like most twi doctrine) it's really got very little practical day-to-day application, and when it has come up at all most people shrug and say, 'that's different' and that's the end of it. But I think frankly some people are AFRAID to try a regular church because they've become convinced they will be attacked as cult members and harassed for their view of Jesus. I think it's great that GS exists even just to prove its tagline (we left and we're not only alive, but blessed and prosperous) and maybe it's good that half the posts towards CES'rs have been 'sorry to hear that' while the other half have been 'you deserved what you got, see if LCM is still available to take over.' Maybe people need their cages rattled to that extent - who knows. Were if not for the anonymity aspect, I think it would be great to have a post listing churches you are involved in where you have seen personally that people will be loved and accepted *even if they are open about their beliefs*. If this already exists somewhere it might really help people. I talked to one young friend in another state for SIX MONTHS before he was comfortable TRYING a local church where he didn't know anyone and didn't want to lie to people about what he believed. He was afraid of exactly what you think he'd be; trinity, slain in the spirit, singing worship songs that he didn't agree with, getting harassed because of his beliefs - he grew up *completely* in twi and offshoots his *entire life*. He's barely 23 so you can't really razz him about how he's hanging on to the way days - he's a next gen legacy of the way imploding and there are a LOT like him that grew up in families still trying to recover their lives. There are hundreds of active youth still in CES. He has started going to a local church (finally) but then his car broke down. He's now getting a ride with a neighbor who happens to go there - but maybe you get my point - he probably would have gone 6 months ago if he knew there was someone in his area that he trusted even a little that said, 'hey come with me, this church is cool.' The call from 'therebutforgrace' and others for *prayer* for the people dealing with this is real - real lives at stake and an opportunity for real chains to get broken.

(and another thing) :D to further clarify - i think one of the sickest and saddest twi legacies was breaking of families and ignoring the needs of those at home, like the kidlets. it's cool to hear from several of you that you put 110% emphasis on that in your post-twi life. took me way too long to figure it out, but better late than never! night all!

Skyrider, I should not have just said, "i don't think anyone would call that quitting." My REAL feelings are that your choice as described is the FAR BETTER one, and I have repented often of not making it soon enough and often enough. Our "real ministry" is what's in front of our eyes all day long and I don't need another book or a fearless leader to explain. Someone asked Colin Powell how he rose to the top military position he was in and he said, "I never walked passed an obvious need without doing something about it, and for some reason they just started promoting me." Exchathedra / Tonto - no worries for the confusion and no apology needed, but thanks for the clarification. Uptown1 (not to be confused with 1broken1) - i went back and read your posts and in general you seem to be saying things like, I'm not sure what the disagreement with you on that would be, and if your personal experience is that you've seen ex-way people who 'gave up' I would say I've seen a lot of that too. There seem to be some people here who are strong exceptions to that in this 'community' and people who have moved on in life, which is great. Hopefully we can get some grace for our skepticism that many twi people just got so hurt and burned they bailed for good. All - I am a little new to GS, but I have noticed (it seems) that if I leave a sentence open to more than one way of interpretting it, the strongest 'negative' way seems to be how it's received. I am open to discussion, debate, alternative, agreement, but several times I just get snapped retorts about my assumed ignorance. :huh: Is it just me?

Thank you. He died while still in a little splinter and we didn't talk for the last two years because his 'pastor' said I was possessed. I got to spend about two good months with him as he shut down and passed away (he was still my best friend!). I was really thankful for that time and know for sure it was a total gift from God. It was hard to go back and be in that environment while he died but he welcomed me back which was really unbelievable.

I'm not 'deciding' if they are or not. Really not sure what you're talking about. Tonto / Excathedra - are you saying it shouldn't bother me to see people I love (LIKE MY FAMILY) with wrecked lives from bad decisions and hurt from a living in a cult? Are you serious???

I had a dear friend from TWI who passed away December 05 and I still think about him everyday and miss him like crazy. He lead me to the Lord and gave me a place to stay and food to eat, aside from teaching me to pray, read the bible and try to love people. Another friend and I were both excommunicated from a twi splinter. Iwent first and we didn't talk for about a year and he went and then we became closer than brothers. It is that way today although we are many states away. Those are the two closest, outside of my wife, who left 'normal' church started our married life with me in a splinter. Not sure what she was thinking, but thank God He sent her!