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Round 2, if Mckenzie's theory is accurate, seems to be this Gog and Magog event described in Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20. Even some futurists see Ezekiel 38-39 as the next big event on the prophetic calender...happening just before the coming great tribulation. I see the great tribulation as a past event... the 42 month or 3.5 year invasion and attack by Rome on Israel from 67-70 AD. culminating in the destruction of the Temple(Math. 24:1,2) bringing about the final end of the old covenant age and beginning of the new covenant. Also the end of satan's dominion of the gentile nations. It's interesting that the alliances described in Ezekiel 38-39 have never been possible in the history of the world until now.

Right on Steve Lortz! The beast with 7 heads and 10 horns in the book of Revelation expands on the 4th Beast described in Daniel 7 which is the Roman Empire. There are only 4 beasts in Daniel 7: Lion = Babylonian Empire, Bear = Medo-Persia, Leopard = Greek Empire, 4th Beast " dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong" = Roman Empire. That is why the futurists who actually read Daniel realize that there must be a reemergence of a revived Roman empire if their theory is true...that these events are in our future. So all these theories such as a 10 nation European Union are discussed and also the theory that it's referring to a revived Holy Roman Empire ie Catholic church...a future pope as antichrist etc. So I will discuss an alternative theory of the beasts of Daniel and Revelation. That the 4th beast of Daniel and the 7 headed, 10 horned beast of Revelation was the Roman empire from Julius Caesar to Vespasian. The 10 horns being the human rulers and the 7 heads being the supernatural rulers: 1.) Julius Caesar 2.) Augustus 3.) Tiberius 4.) Gaius (Caligula) 5.) Claudius 6.) Nero ---> "one is" of Rev. 17:9 7.) Galba -------------> 8.) Otho --------------> 3 horns pulled out Dan 7:8 9.) Vitellius ---------> 10.) Vespasian 11.) Titus -----------------------------> the little eleventh horn of Daniel 7 So looking at Revelation 17:7-11: focusing on the supernatural rulers who work through the human rulers ignoring the 3 horns pulled out Galba, Otho, Vitellius. "There are 7 kings" (fallen angels). 1.) Julius 2.) Augustus 3.) Tiberius 4.) Gaius 5.) Claudius 6.) Nero ------> one is 7.) Vespasian 8.) Titus --------------------> the beast that was and is not(at the time Rev. was written) is himself also the eighth and is of the seven(or 7th?). Titus was Vespasian's son and a general, not an emperor when Rev. was written. That is why he was described as a little horn in Daniel. Ultimately what we are being shown is the fallen angel(individual beast that comes out of the bottomless pit) working through Titus in his destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Very strange language until we realize that it is describing spirits and not just humans. So this beast that comes out of the bottomless pit must have existed on earth at an earlier time and was confined(or inactivated)for a period of time. One theory of the "was" in Rev 17:11 is that the "beast" was the same spirit who worked through Antiochus IV when he sacked Jerusalem in 167BC.

Daniel and Revelation have so much symbolic and figurative language that it is difficult to interpret what God was/is revealing to us. In some verses there is so much gray area that people with different subjective viewpoints will come up with very different meanings. It is like a giant word puzzle and we're just trying to fit the pieces together. But I do believe it is possible to fit the pieces together. I mentioned in a previous post that I would discuss various anomalies in Daniel and Revelation. Anomaly meaning a deviation from the common rule, arrangement, explanation etc. The anomaly I will discuss in this post occurs in Revelation 22. In fact this is the anomaly that sealed the deal for me regarding preterism. Look at Revelation 22:6: "Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place." Notice the phrase "shortly take place". To me there is no gray area there. Pretty straightforward. Another anomaly is Revelation 22:10: "And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand." To me "time is at hand" means around the corner or near. Although I've seen "time is at hand" explained as meaning "imminent" which is thus explained as could happen at any time even thousands of years into the future. But connecting Rev 22:10 with 22:6 I'm guessing that "time is at hand" means a short period of time. There is an interesting parallel of Rev. 22:10 to Daniel 12:9 "And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." The angel told Daniel that the prophecy he was given would not occur in his lifetime. The figurative phrase "words are closed up and sealed" is used. Notice Daniel 12:13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.” But in Revelation 22:10 it says "Do not seal the words of the prophecy" ?

I probably should have mentioned during my previous post that I do believe there will be a second resurrection at the end of the 1000 years. The 1st resurrection/gathering occurring at 70 AD which included Israel's dead (pre-70AD) and the 1st century(pre-70AD) Christian's who stayed faithful to the end. Some were still alive: "Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." Some were martyred: Rev 20:4" and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." It doesn't mention a second gathering in Revelation because that is probably the end of human history on this earth as we know it, shortly after the Gog and Magog event.

Hi Raf, Thanks for asking about preterism. To TWIers or former TWIers like us, preterism is a completely foreign doctrine. Actually, 99.9% of Christians today have no clue what preterism is and hold to "dispensational" futurism. I was like everybody else until 2006... believing that the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation will be fulfilled in our future. I discovered preterism by accident in 2004. I was watching a History Channel program about the early Roman empire and some of the military campaigns of Julius Caesar. Being a history buff, the program piqued my interest so I jumped on the internet and looked up web sites with info about Roman history and some of the factions Rome was fighting during the 1st century. During this internet search I came across a web site about preterism. When I 1st read a description of preterism, I laughed out loud and said "bull pucky!"...and completely blew it off. About 2 weeks later I came across another web site about preterism but it was a powerpoint presentation of Matthew 24 explained from a preterist perspective. After reading that presentation, it made so much sense that I decided to dig deeper into the doctrine. Basically I read anything I could about preterism for about 2 years remaining skeptical. So here I am... now a believer. It took me a while to understand that there are different flavors of preterism. For example, full preterists believe that all of the prophecies written in the bible have already been fulfilled. Partial preterists believe that some or most of the prophecies have already been fulfilled, but there are still some to be fulfilled in our future. Technically I'm a partial preterist, because I believe that evil will be completely eliminated at the final judgement(Rev 20:10-15) which is in our future. But most of what is described in Revelation (and everything in Daniel), I am convinced has already taken place and describes the invasion and destruction of Israel from 66-70 AD by the sea Beast which is Rome. Ultimately what is being described through symbols is that the sea Beast was the confederation of fallen angels who worked through leaders of the Roman empire. We are taught that satan still has dominion of the earth. As a preterist, I believe satan's dominion ended at 70 AD. That doesn't mean that evil is gone from the earth because humanity is still in a fallen state and also there are still fallen angels, oops I mean debbil spurts, here causing trouble who had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged...see Daniel 7:11-12. However, the debbil spurts running Rome were cast into the lake of fire(also a symbol) at 70 AD. The way the language reads it seems there is an individual beast who was the prince or chief fallen angel over all the other fallen angels who were running Rome pre-70 AD. So satan's dominion ended at 70 AD and he was put into prison. That also could be symbolic and not literal. In Rev. 20:3 it describes satan being cast into the bottomless pit that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled. So it's possible that satan wasn't literally removed from the earth at 70AD but just in terms of his ability to deceive the nations. If you look at history post 70 AD, Christianity eventually flourished although it took a few hundred years and plenty of resistance. So getting to your question about what the future holds... I agree with Duncan McKenzie that we are currently in the 1000 years which isn't a literal 1000 years but symbolic for a very long period of time... so far 1900 and some odd years. The 1000 years started at 70AD with the end of the old covenant when the temple was destroyed during the great tribulation(Matt 24:2) and thus began the new covenant. There is some speculation that we could now be in the time where satan has been released to deceive the nations again. I know to some of you this is the craziest stuff you ever read. I think what changed my thinking to the preterist camp is the fact that I now take very little in Daniel and Revelation literally. Also there are anomalies in various prophetic passages such as Luke 21:5,6 that talks about not one stone of the temple that shall not be thrown down. Then further down the chapter there is Luke 21:20 "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." That is like a punch in the face : 70AD!!!70 AD!!!70AD!!! Did that not happen in 70AD? Do we know history anymore? Look at Daniel 12:1 12 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." The angel is telling Daniel thy people will be delivered(the ones written in the book) etc. Who is "thy people"? "Thy people" is Daniel's people Israel. Then Daniel asks the angel: "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" Then the man clothed in linen said: "time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." The power of the holy people(Israel), was scattered/shattered in 70 AD ! The "he" being the king of the north, who was Titus, the Roman general who led the attack on Jerusalem, but "he" was ultimately the fallen angel working through Titus. The initial invasion of Rome to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD took about 42 months(Rev 13:5) or 3.5 years. Look at Luke 21:24 "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Was the times of the Gentiles fulfilled in 1948? There are other anomalies which I will discuss later, but my fingers need a rest right now. I believe Duncan Mckenzie has bible prophecy put together like no else although I don't agree with everything he proposes. I highly recommend reading his material. There are many articles to read here: http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/m/mckenzie-duncan.html Go ahead and ask more questions if you like. I usually have time to reply on weekends. Peace brothers and sisters.

The Babylon mentioned in Revelation is definitely not the literal city of ancient Babylon that lies in ruins in modern day Iraq. In Revelation 1:1 it talks about showing God's servants things which must shortly come to pass and that he sent and "signified" it by His angel to John. Signified means by way of symbols. So it is obviously not literal Babylon. Actually nothing in Revelation is literal. It's all symbolism. In order to figure out what the symbol Babylon is referring to we need to gather clues from other parts of the bible if possible. In Rev 18:11 it mentions that the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over Babylon's destruction because no one buys their merchandise anymore. Then it goes on to describe the merchandise. Look at 2nd Chronicles 2:11-14. The king of Tyre mentions the merchandise during a discussion of the building of the first Temple. 8 out of 10 items used in the building of the 1st Temple are included in the merchandise of harlot Babylon in Rev. 18. Revelation was written to a 1st century audience who knew the old testament much better than us generally speaking. So various allusions in Rev. to events in books such as Ezekiel and Chronicles etc... those 1st century Christians would have immediately recognized it. Look at Ezekiel 27. It describes the merchants lamenting over the fall of the pagan city Tyre. The merchandise is different but John includes allusions to the lamenting of Tyre for a reason. Mainly the commerce of Tyre. Rev 18's allusion to the commerce of Tyre thus contains an allusion to the commerce of the Temple during the 1st century. The commercialization of the Temple was one of the things that caused Jesus to become angry. John 2:13-16 "make not my Father's house an house of merchandise". Precious metals were used throughout the Temple. Josephus, a Jewish historian, in the Jewish War, describes the precious metals used for the doors of the inner court: " Of the gates, nine were completely overlaid with gold and silver, as were the posts and lintels, but the one outside the sanctuary was of Corinthian bronze and far more valuable than those overlaid with silver plates and set in gold". In describing the dress of harlot Babylon, Rev 17:4 uses the phrase "adorned with gold"...a reference to the Temple. Rev 18:13 consists of items used in the sacrifices and offerings of the temple. The incense of the temple included cinnamon and frankincense Exod. 30:34. Wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle, and sheep were all used in temple services. Rev 18:22 says the sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard anymore. Instruments and music played a big part in temple ceremonies. See 1st Chronicles 25. In 70 AD there was a siege around Jerusalem by the Roman army under Titus that resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Look at Luke 21:20 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Matthew 24:1,2 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. I think most of you who have read this whole reply have figured out that I'm a preterist. It took me 2 years of reading to come to this point.