therebutforgrace

TZ...what do you mean by "a cultural thing"? And..how do you pronounce your name?

Thanks, Groucho...I guess I meant, the purpose of this thread... I'm still a newbie to the lingo....

Hi Danny...et al..... It is not the purpose of this forum to 'care' or 'not care' what JL, JS, MG, KA, DG or anyone else 'thinks'. EXCEPT in how that obeys or disobeys God and thus edifies or tears down God's PEOPLE who call those men/women their Christian leadership. If you follow the thread, most of us here do not call them our Christian leadership; yet some of us have family and friends who do. Thus we care very much how they LIVE in relationship to our loved ones. Sadly, Danny, you are one of many of us who, through the years, have felt that JL JS, MG, etc....don't think we're good enough. The good news of the present, however, is that --in large measure due to what has been exposed here at GreaseSpot--JL has begun to see this. I hope to begin seeing it in the others also. I give God the praise for the beginning of JL's repentance...and for now, it appears that people are not continuing to be hurt by CES. (They mailed their monthly tape and magazine--and I don't agree with all that they print, but I'm talking about hurtful, in-person interactions. There is no PAC anymore; there is little 'counseling' that I've heard of, praise God, and of course there are fewer people now who look upon them as Christian leadership.) They aren't my leadership and I won't attend any conferences or buy any of their books. But, as long as I hear no reports that people are continuing to be hurt, I will be patient with their individual and collective speed of walking away from and repentance for the Evil that they had grown to call Good. God and my family were patient with mine.

rascal wrote....You're mad at the wrong guys, people. Maybe what we need to see is that being mad at ANY 'guys' is wrong. Whether they cause it, receive it or expose it. The Word says we don't wrestle against flesh and blood. It's either true or it isn't. Obviously, the flesh and blood people are the ones who say and do the hurtful things. And ignoring those sins does not make them go away. If someone knew a child molester moved next door to you, would you want her to tell you, your neighbors and the principal of your elementary school? If she brought his sin into the light would you, the neighbors or the principal indict her for that sin? Would you think she caused the problem? Would you all get together and growl, "Everything was fine in this neighborhood until she started stirring up trouble!"? I don't think so. NOTE: If she LIED about the person, or even if it were true but she exposed it in an ungodly manner...(fearfully, pridefully, vengefully, arrogantly, dishonestly, unethically, or in any way unlovingly).....then you could hold her accountable for that sin. But even in that case, would you confuse her sin with the molester's sin? I don't think so. So.....it seems to me that confusing those sins here at GreaseSpot is what makes rascal right in saying.... It sometimes feels like folks get more angry at us for telling what happened than the perpetrators who assaulted us. Personally, I am not mad at any human. but I am angry about what humans do. And I am angry with the devil who has deceived the humans into doing it. When I'm angry at God's enemy, I more easily keep myself separate from acting like hiim! And I'm energized to right the wrongs. As best I can, I speak truth (in love) both to the guys who hurt people...and to the guys whom they have hurt. Sadly, I've been in both roles in my life. Mercifully, the Lord convicted me in the former, and comforted me in the latter, so I now attempt to live my life as His representative, doing the same thing for others as He did for me. I will do whatever I can to bring an end to evil. And I do it by remembering to direct my anger ---not to ANY guys...not to any people.....but to the SOURCE--God's enemy, Satan. I then engage my weapons that are not carnal but mighty to the pulling down of strongholds (lies we humans believe and therefore act on)....and Christ gets the vicotry and the glory! If those who hurt people do not repent privately, speaking the truth to them becomes more public--and those of us who hear about it can stand with those actually involved in it by remembering that we don't beat evil by becoming like it....and by remembering that the GOAL is Repentance...so there is change...so evil ends. This is a wonderful forum where hidden things can be brought to light so that we can know where to use our authority in Christ to STOP the enemy from continuing to use our brothers/sisters in Christ for his purposes. Thanks again, Paw, for making this available.

Sadly, that was a very good post, rascal. Accurate, but more than that, wisely written with the love of God in your heart very obvious in the writing. CaribouSam, et al.....Since the guys in CES still need lots of help seeing all of their own mess (and that's what this thread can help them do), let's not derail this thread with TWI messes. That said.....how the CES mess compares to TWI's mess IS pertinent....and in fact could be a new thread idea in this forum.

Hi Spot, I go to a church now because I asked the Lord for a church who manifested the POWER of God. I thought of asking a certain group and they gave me a name so I went. Been going 3 years now (when I feel like it--no pressure; sometimes don't know if I'll go until the Lord wakes me Sunday morning). Boy can this lady preach the Word! I love it! Of course she thinks Jesus is God, but she doesn't preach on it...she knows I don't and didn't bat an eye. She loves people, she serves people, she feeds the homeless and visits prisons and orphanages and has a half-way house for those getting out of jail and I get to serve in any or all that I want at any time. What a blessing! What a difference from the wealthy church I grew up in----very little serving people) and what a difference from late TWI years (early years were much bettter)----in LOVING all people! My point: as has been said, ask the Lord what to do and then obey. I thought I was going for one reason, but I'm there for another. He knew that! :-) Jesus has never left you or forsaken you. so....climb back into Daddy's arms and start all over again!! It's wonderful!!!

JS wrote a letter to the mailing list a few weeks ago...and, as DMiller said, it wasn’t specific. Now The Sower comes out and you tell us it isn’t specific. So we wonder.....why have JS and the BOD chosen not to 'honestly share how desperate the situation is'. IMO, the bulk of your answer is that JS, DG and GandKT do not think the situation IS ‘desperate’. Years ago when there was a desperate situation among the CES BOD, someone asked JS why...in the 2+ years of the crisis...he had done nothing about it. He replied, “I thought it would just blow over.” Which leads me to another part of your answer. (IMO) A prideful attitude that some of us learned in TWI and some of us might not have gotten rid of yet: to use your words, the one that sees people as 'peons,' 'not spiritual enough' and 'regular folks.' An attitude that DISAGREES WITH GOD and allows for the possibility that I could be more important to Him than you. Whereas JS can quote we have all sinned and fallen short, we are all members in particular, God is no respector of persons, while we were sinners Christ died for all, God so loved the world, etc......his letter and The Sower, if correctly described here, do not SHOW it in practice. You are SOOOOO right that the ‘love and prayers of 100s of people (not sure they have thousands) can do wonders’. Setting aside the EVIL manner in which they ALL signed on to treat E, had JS chosen to simply tell their mailing list even just the one clear fact that MG is suing DG, JB, JL and STF itself (notifying them that the organization they have been supporting is involved in a lawsuit!), perhaps God could have moved in some of those people who ‘trust and support them’ to call, email, visit, write MG to HELP HIM SEE the error of his ways! But instead, as you say, JS did not choose to do this. In short,...in order to really be ‘determined to be on the mend’ one must think something needs to be mended. It appears, however (this is conjecture based on what I’ve seen and heard and I’d love to be wrong), that JS, DG, GandKT feel that CES is back on the right road now that MG and TR can be outvoted on the BOD. And if that is true, then it is logical for CES to proceed as though it’s ‘business as usual’..... because to them, it is.

Amen, rascal...

Amen, Bramble.

Hi Bumpy... Your name describes the ride CES is currently on.... I know of at least one long letter of feedback the BOD has received from an ex-CESer. (More, please!) They have begun to hear and see some things differently and to contact people they need to apologize to (including E). Their current Tape of the Month and Sower were already in the works, but hopefully, if CES continues and if they continue to put out tapes and magazines, future ones will begin to show that a shift has begun and that eyes, ears and hearts are opening. Whatever they do will not please everyone. Their apologies won't be fast enough; their changes complete enough; etc.... But for those of us who have prayed for these people for many years, this wake up call is a definitive answer to prayer and we continue to pray that like Job, though their beginning is small, yet their latter end shall be great--they will get and remain humble; repent, change, and be able to fulfill whatever calling God has on their lives to serve Him and His people; and love the believers and non-believers alike as Christ loves us and gave Himself for us. Thank you to all who are praying with us. Not only for the CES guys...but for all of the folks we've loved and lost to CultBrain. God is faithful and He loves them more than we do. I'm blessed to serve with you all.

Hi Bumpy... Tell them Jesus loves them!!

CS, you're right in that there have been Christian groups who label as a cult anything which is not Trinitarian. But do hear Quiet Thinker (hello QT!) because cults DO have clear characteristics. TWI (and CES imo) meet quite a few of them. A good list is at: http://www.sspx-cult.com/CultCharacteristics.htm I, too, by the grace of God, had a far better 'experience' with TWI than most people who post here....but a quick read of "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by Johnson and VanVonderen clearly describes much of what has been going on in TWi (and CES--to a lesser degree but it's still all evil). Thus I call them both cults. Not because I'm mad at any of them...just by simple definition.

Thanks for this pro-active approach, CS... I vote for using God's terminology, not man's, in this thread. My reason is that man's terminology varies so much with each person's understanding. At least when we use God's words we all go to the same source for them and have the same Spirit in us to open our understanding. Plus, man's words seem to have no solution...you 'recover' forever...whereas God's words which descriibe problems also include the solutions: "you once were, but now are"....! I'll give one example: Man has lately made up the word dysfunctional. There is no definition of dysfunctional in the Word and no solution for it. Ah, but if we use the word CARNAL, God gave us many definite instructions about its cause and solution! So..can we define "Healthy" in this thread as "godly" or "how God would have it"? or "biblical"?

Welcome kerke, to GreaseSpot! Actually there's a lot of enjoyment here at the Cafe.... Stick around.....

When I think I have more of the Truth than you (even if I do), but have not yet broken into true humility before God and Jesus (death of self; all I 'have' is a gift; I deserved death but were given life, etc.), but am still prideful about having the Truth, then I think telling you what to do (or even making you do it) is 'help'. If I have good intentions, and I think I've got the Truth (even if I do), but have not yet broken and become grateful to be a servant, then more telling you what to do is more help. Since I define it as Help, not Control, today's pop-psychology's mumbo jumbo that manufactures victims who need help can lead me further and further astray until I can become very diligent to be sure I'm 'helping' you as much as possible. All the while my good intentioned-heart has been deceived and I've wandered into calling evil Good, calling control Help, calling witchcraft Love and of course calling law Grace. Witchcraft can, of course, become demonic, but Galatians lists it as a sin of the flesh--I want my way (ask any 2-year old). When I'm 50 and I'm right, then obviously the best thing for you is to want my way too. And the beat goes on.....