Golfie

eknon20, WrestlenotAgainst posted this and I say a BIG AMEN to it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: The church that I am in has more to offer than TWI ever did. At first I was skeptical. But God is forever fighting for our hearts. Every bible study I have been to, has done nothing but HEAL my wounds, from being in TWI, to even healing other wounds in my life. Every sermon, and every bible study I have walked into, I have walked out feeling that God himself was there and talking to me. Listen to God. Not with your Way-brain, but with the heart that God gave you. There is no way you can deny that he wants the best for you. And TWI is no longer going to do it. They have tripped and fallen flat on their face. The embarrassment they have is contempt for the people that tripped them. They are not humble enough to release what they know they should. So tell your husband that the alternative of being in the Way, is a better life and a greater understanding of God. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I was in twi for 22 years and my heart was hardened toward Christian churches outside twi. So I drove an hour to attend an extwi fellowship for a while. Finally I searched churches close to home...UCC, Baptist, Evangelical Reformed, and several non-denominational churches. I am blessed to have found a church that has a pastor with a real Dr. degree. We have communion service every week, which I prefer to once a year or once a month. The children are taught and I get as much from that as the adult sermon. Please beware of twi seducing you and hubby to be HHF2 coordinators. TWI seduced a 5 year friend of mine by telling (flattering)her "you have a longsuit in word of wisdom". She was "allowed" to teach and was hooked...her ego wanted to a twi insider. We attend a real church now because our children are so much more better off than in twi. The above quote really takes the words out of my mouth. God bless you.

We suggest that you check all characteristics that apply to your or your loved one's group, then print this browser page for future reference. You may find that your assessment changes over time, with further reading and research. The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. The group is preoccupied with making money. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth). The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity). The group has a polarized us- versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society. The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations). The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means that members would have considered unethical before joining the group (for example: collecting money for bogus charities). The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them. Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members The Way International has ALL the characteristics of a cult. [ Cult 101 Home ]

"Vic, A lot of us, about 100,000 PFAL grads, wish YOU WERE HALF THE MAN YOU LED US TO BELIEVE YOU WERE."

"Jesus I know, Paul I am familiar with, but who are you?"

"The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary...coursework was not accepted by many other institutions...few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into (MORE)disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in ang get a degree" Obviously, other educational institutions (universities) knew more about Pikes Peak Seminary than Mike does. "still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest...lie la lie, lie la lie lie lie la lie" --Paul Simon

integrity 1. The state or quality of being entire or complete; wholeness; entireness; unbroken state; as, the integrity of an empire or territory. 2. Moral soundness; honesty; freedom from corrupting influence or motive; -- used especially with reference to the fulfillment of contracts, the discharge of agencies, trusts, and the like; uprightness; rectitude. 3. Unimpaired, unadulterated, or genuine state; entire correspondence with an original condition; purity. Did VPW, LCM, & RFR have integrity? doctor's degree n : one of the highest academic degrees conferred by a university Did VPW get a doctor's degree from a "university"? u·ni·ver·si·ty 1. An institution for higher learning with teaching and research facilities constituting a graduate school and professional schools that award master's degrees and doctorates and an undergraduate division that awards bachelor's degrees. Does this sound like Pikes Peak Seminary? [This message was edited by Golfie on February 01, 2004 at 1:49.]

quote: Craig a copout? But he's a thoroughbred! Remember? How could anybody forget? He was always reminding us. (It might account for the horse....!) What the he|| does that mean?? I never heard that, but I wasn't around for his administration. Please give me some details. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim, 1977 or 1978 LCM traveled around the country visiting limb homes, promoting the Way Corps. I was at such a meeting...he said, "the corps is for spiritual thoroughbreds...when you come in, hit the ground running!" He was yelling as his manner was. As a result the way corps grew...for better or worse. Now he might live in a $138,000 house that was bought by TWI outside of Toledo. Time heals all wounds....time wounds all heals. What goes around, comes around. The wheel of God's justice may grind slow, but it grinds fine.

The Way International is like...getting ....*d without a kiss. The Way International is like...a day without Son light...dark. The Way International is like the mushroom treatment. They keep you in the dark, feed you a bunch of $hit, and then can you. Merry Christmas everyone. Happy Hou Ho Re Lo ;-)

"and my wonderful family that asked me to come home for thanksgiving (no I was at xxrd in Business), come home for a birthday party, father's day (ha had twig), for sunday dinner (ha had a "must do" event of some kind or another). And now today I don't know my nephews and neices. Hardly recognize my brothers and sister, and my parents have died. Hope you guys "lurking and reading" take heed and check out your family while you still have them. Ignoring your family isn't "putting God first," it's being incredibly bonehead stupid -- your family is the "hide not yourself from your own flesh" God commands. It's the "honor your parents" (while you have them around to honor)." Kit ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This is great advice...i wish i took it way back when... If you could have dinner with anyone you choose, who would it be? For me: My Mom and Dad (both deceased), my wife and children, Jesus Christ. Think about it.

JPW and his sisters wrote on Feb. 2, 2003: "Dear Rosalie, Harve, and Jean Yves" and signed it "Sincerely in Christ". Evidently, the BOD did not reply as they should have. Then JPW wrote "Dear Fellow Saints" saying in that letter: "The Board of Directors must respond in writing to their followers. They must rescind their presumptuous use of our family's endorsement of their actions toward our mother. If they are unable to find the courage to do so, they should provide me with a current mailing list so that I may inform our brothers and sisters of the truth and facts concerning these matters. I expect to share my thoughts with you on these and other issues in the coming days....God bless you....sincerely yours, J.P." I recken these letters do what Matthew 18: 15-17 says. "15 If your brother wrongs you, go and show him his fault, between you and him privately. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two others, so that every word may be confirmed and upheld by the testimony of two or three witnesses. 17 If he pays no attention to them [refusing to listen and obey], tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a pagan and a tax collector." The TWI BOD are as pagans (gentiles) and tax collectors (The IRS).

I reread JP's letter and twi's alleged Harve P letter. The HP letter is a pack of lies. Paw, I would not have allowed twi to use GSpot to spew their vennomous attack on JPW. JP addressed his letter "Dear Fellow Saints" His stated purpose is "I submit these documents on this web site to you with a view toward clearing up this confusion from my point of view...I expect you would like to know how she has been and how she is currently being cared for." -- JPW TWI innies, get BOTH sides of the story. Read JPW's site and documents. Then read twi's HP letter. TWI is trying to confuse and deceive their followers some more to save face and their income. try this link http://www.jpwierwille.com/titlepage.html

Steve Lortz, wrote "I no longer believe, necessarily, that we were literally "born again" when we received the spirit that was first shed forth on the day of Pentecost. I think we were figuratively "born again" because the Pentecost spirit is our earnest (or "down payment", or "option") of receiving the spirit of the "new birth" at the time of the gathering together." I have thought that for a while. The holy spirit we have now is a "token" of that which is to come at the rapture gathering together. When was Jesus born again? God said of Jesus, "This day have I begotten thee" referring to the day that God raised Jesus from the dead and gave him an incorruptable body.

I remember that SNS tape, "Christ formed in you." The transcript of it was interesting...like eating fish...swallow the meat, but spit out the bones, or else you will choke. Here are some fish bones: "you that you can so get in alignment and harmony with God's Word that that Word so lives within you and you live within that Word that you can absolutely take anything your mind has done previously and make it agree with God's Word, change it around, and you can so walk ... People will never see Christ until they see you. He's seated in the heavenlies, waiting to get back. The only Christ they'll ever see is the walk within you, the Christ in you, the joy in you, the thanksgiving, the blessings, the effervescence, the enthusiasm, the smile, the dedication, the commitment. That's all they'll ever see of Christ. They're not going to open the Book. You know, they can buy one, put it in the house, they ain't going to open it. They're not going to read it. Not going to study it..." -- VPW Many TWI people got so much "in alignmnet" that they were convinced that what ever they thought was God's will. They could rationaize any sin they wanted to do to agree with god's word. The absent Christ teaching is evident here. The ego to think that Jesus could not reveal Himself and the Father to who ever hungers and thirsts for righteousness, there has to be a PFAL grad to show the way. I read the Bible and enjoyed it BEFORE I took PFAL. VPW is sure negative about people's ability to read the Bible without TWI to badger them into it. Give God and Jesus some credit for doing something without twi and vpw.

Are any of the new fellowships and ministries acting like TWI? Yes. Last Sunday I went to another church i heard about. Many of the members were into greeting and hugging. The deacon taught 3John2 before taking the collection. The minister had us repeat after him, "I am what the word says, i have what the word says..." The minister rambled on about credit cards, debt and having a motgage. (I WANTED TO TELL HIM, "IF YOU WOULD NOT MANDATE TITHING, THEN YOUR CONGREGATION COULD PAY OFF THEIR MORTGAGES SOONER!") It is another name it-claim it, blab and grab ministry.

How do you "see" things in the word or in VPW's teachings that no one else sees? You just might be a) out of fellowship. b) drunk or high. c) sinning like a trooper, but have not confessed it and repented. d) seduced, deceived, and/or beguiled by satan. e) all of the above.

Since I bought up d.s. I want nolongerlurking to know that i agree totally with her/him. My point is intended for twi innies lurking here to realize how sick their religious organization really is. They believe VPW & LCM teachings about mental illness and ds possession. Therefore, they should conclude that twi needs an excorcism or they should leave twi at their earliest convenience. peace

" Should we cast out devil spirits? " Suppose VPW's abnormal behavior was not mental, but spiritual. Didn't VPW teach us that mental illness is really possesion by devil spirits? VPW was often guilty of the same things he accused others of. When VPW died, to whom did did all those devil spirits go? After LCM got the boot, where did his d.s. go?

What Fence? If you add to the Word of God, then you no longer have God's word. For example: Ephesians 4:4 There is one body TWI: There is one functioning household of like-minded believers practically applying the rightly divided (the Way International) Since you believe TWI's private interpretion of that verse, you will not enjoy fellowship with the one body of Christ. If you think TWI BOD and Way Corpse HFC are "who best lives the Word as I do and is committed to it above all" then you are sadly deceived. You will have a difficult time seeing the light. ------------------------------------------------- "One of the last bits of Waybrain to go is the smug self-assurance that I Know The Truth. Until you shed that, you can't really get out of TWI, no matter how long ago you left." -- Zixar posted March 11, 2003 19:48 ------------------------------------------------- [This message was edited by Golfie on March 11, 2003 at 23:33.]

What Fence refers to Hebrews 10:25 ============================================================================== "It's still easy to stay in. I don't want to forsake the assembling together with like-minded believers." ============================================================================== However, SCRIPTURE does NOT say we are to assemble together with "LIKE-MINDED BELIEVERS", it says "assembling of OURSELVES together". Who is "ourselves" referring to in the context? The book of Hebrews was addressed to belivers with a Jewish background, who still wanted to be bound by law. They still wanted to go to the temple and synagogue, where the priest offered sacrifices for sins. Believers attending temple and synagogue were forsaking the assembling together with their brethren in Christ who were free from bondage of law. Today, The TWI Auditorium and TWI household fellowships are like the Temple and synagogues. You people in TWI fail to realize and appreciate your own relatives, your next door neighbor, those you work with daily (secular job, ugh! a twi term), people you shop with...almost all these people are Christians outside of TWI, you TWI innies forsake assembling together with them. "Assembling together" does NOT mean sitting in the same church service with "like-minded believers" who agree with TWI! This is who "ourselves" refers to in Hebrews: Hebrews 10 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest (JESUS The Annointed One) over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. It is impossible to leave TWI if you think TWI is "it" or if the BOD and HFC are your "high priest over the house of God." You need a new and living WAY. Don't test the water by dipping your toe...jump right in...have your heart sprinkled from an evil conscience with pure water. TWI is a whited sepulchre,with death inside, defiling all you unsuspecting innies. Come clean. Wake up and smell the fresh air outside of TWI. Then never go back...don't be like a dog returning to his vomit to lick it up, or like a washed sow returning to wallow in muck. You have been there, done that, gotten the tee shirt. Now move on the follow Lord Jesus the Christ! You will be amazed how far you can go outside of TWI. [This message was edited by Golfie on March 08, 2003 at 4:31.]

Evan wrote ================================================== There is nothing that indicates that one is ever "born of Satan's seed". That's an invention of Wierwille that doesn't enjoy biblical support. Satan has no such creative or reproductive power, being darkness & parasitic. Any place it refers to 'child of the devil', 'sons of disobedience', etc, it is metaphoric, =================================================== Amen. I saw the seldom played PFAL segment "The Unforgivable Sin". Now I am so thankful that it was NOT included in the 12 session class because that teaching is so wrong! Lucifer, Gabriel and Michael were God's archangels. Lucifer cannot create seed any more than Gabriel or Michael. Being "of" someone in the bible does not always indicate seed. I believe the Bible is figurative referring to certain people as "of the devil, the serpant, Belial, etc." VPW was way off base on this topic, LCW was farther off...in left field. (Please excuse the baseball analogy.)

"Oh the price He paid for me..." When put on probation, I felt depressed, worthless, because my good was spoken evil of by TWI. However, in my depression, deep inside I knew this "curse" was a blessing in disguise. That song that Stevie Kay Louie sang helped me. "in my eyes, I was nothing to no one...oh, the price He paid for me." I thought about the price paid being indicative of how much someone is worth. Then I did not feel so worthless any more. Would someone please post all the lyrics to that song?

Ya gotta watch out for number 1, or else ya might step in number 2. We get attacked because we are in The Househole Fellow$hit, or out of The Househole Fellow$hit, or $hit just happens. There is no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus.

The Text of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" Speech Aug. 28, 1963 [ ] I am happy to join with you today in what will go down in history as the greatest demonstration for freedom in the history of our nation. [ ] Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand today, signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon of hope to millions of Negro slaves, who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of their captivity. But one hundred years later, the Negro is still not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacle of segregation and the chains of discrimination. [ ] One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languishing in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land So we have come here today to dramatize a shameful condition. [ ] In a sense we have come to our Nation's Capital to cash a check. When the architects of our great republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. [ ] This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed to the inalienable rights of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. [ ] It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check that has come back marked "insufficient funds." [ ] But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. So we have come to cash this check, a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and security of justice. [ ] We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of Now. This is not time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. [ ] Now is the time to make real the promise of democracy. [ ] Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. [ ] Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood. [ ] Now is the time to make justice a reality to all of God's children. [ ] It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment and to underestimate the determination of it's colored citizens. This sweltering summer of the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an end but a beginning. Those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual. [ ] There will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights. The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of justice emerges. [ ] But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice. In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. [ ] Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must ever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force. [ ] The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. They have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom. We cannot walk alone. [ ] And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead. We cannot turn back. There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?" We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. [ ] We can never be satisfied as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. [ ] We cannot be satisfied as long as the Negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. [ ] We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped of their selfhood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating "for white only." [ ] We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. [ ] No, no we are not satisfied and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream. [ ] I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of your trials and tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow jail cells. Some of you have come from areas where your quest for freedom left you battered by storms of persecutions and staggered by the winds of police brutality. [ ] You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive. [ ] Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to South Carolina go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our modern cities, knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed. [ ] L et us not wallow in the valley of despair. I say to you today, my friends, that even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow. I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream. [ ] I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed. We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal. [ ] I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood. [ ] I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. [ ] I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. [ ] I have a dream today. [ ] I have a dream that one day down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; that one day right down in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers. [ ] I have a dream today. [ ] I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, and every hill and every mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plains and the crooked places will be made straight and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together. [ ] This is our hope. This is the faith that I will go back to the South with. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. [ ] With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. [ ] With this faith we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to climb up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day. [ ] This will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with new meaning "My country 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. Land where my father's died, land of the Pilgrim's pride, from every mountainside, let freedom ring!" [ ] And if America is to be a great nation, this must become true. So let freedom ring from the hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. [ ] Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania. [ ] Let freedom ring from the snow-capped Rockies of Colorado. [ ] Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California. [ ] But not only that, let freedom, ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia. [ ] Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi and every mountainside. [ ] And when this happens, when we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every tenement and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old spiritual, "Free at last, free at last. Thank God Almighty, we are free at last."

"FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST! THANK GOD ALMIGHTY WE'RE FREE AT LAST!!!" Long ago someone posted a link to click on to hear that great speech.

Leonard Cohen The Songs of Leonard Cohen (1968) Suzanne Suzanne takes you down to her place newer the river You can hear the boats go by You can spend the night beside her And you know that she's half crazy But that's why you want to be there And she feeds you tea and oranges That come all the way from China And just when you mean to tell her That you have no love to give her Then she gets you on her wavelength And she lets the river answer That you've always been her lover And you want to travel with her And you want to travel blind And you know that she will trust you For you've touched her perfect body with your mind. And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water And he spent a long time watching From his lonely wooden tower And when he knew for certain Only drowning men could see him He said 'all men will be sailors then Until the sea shall free them' But he himself was broken Long before the sky would open Forsaken, almost human He sank beneath your wisdom like a stone And you want to travel with him And you want to travel blind And you think maybe you'll trust him For he's touched your perfect body with his mind. Now Suzanne takes you hand And she leads you to the river She is wearing rags and feathers From Salvation Army counters And the sun pours down like honey On our lady of the harbour And she shows you where to look Among the garbage and the flowers There are heroes in the seaweed There are children in the morning They are leaning out for love and they will lean that way forever While Suzanne holds the mirror And you want to travel with her And you want to travel blind And you know that she will trust you For she's touched your perfect body with her mind.