Patrick and Sarah

Int-resting Roy Patrick

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Wow Socks, You put in a way I had not thought of. We become the Ideal version that we emagine to be Christ. If we keep the vision in our mind we become what we desire to be. We live with this newness of life and find it to be good or not good. If it is not good then we change the vision, till we find what truly satisfies. Trial and error. Cause and effect. The perfecting of soul................high mindedness? Maybe, but what else is there to do in life but endeavour to be the best that we can be? I like to say "be careful and have fun". It is on our bullitain board in the living room......."life is supposed to be fun". Well said. My highest view is that love is the highest attainable goal in the present world. To not love, is to live less then I desire. This is my elite self. My high mindedness. Jesus Christ said that "the greatest among you will be the servant of all" Jesus Christ washed his desiples feet. Jesus Christ gave his life for all. This is our example, that we too should give our lives, not in death but as living sacrifices. Elite. Chosen to serve as cman said. I think we keep going deeper and deeper into the idealism that we aspire to. When we have transended to one place, there is a new place to progress to further. It is important to enjoy the present state though. The fullness of all that God is, has been given to us in the form of that Spirit that is in us, and that we daily commune with. Seek ye first the kindom of God, and all things will come natural after that. As we daily seek the Spiritual, we get to enjoy all the fruit of life that goes along with it. The love, the Joy, the Peace, the patience, the kindness, the goodness, the faith , the gentleness, and the self-controle. That Jesus sure was an elite human. I can do all things through Christ who stregthens me. Ever known anyone who believed that?

Very nice cman, Thank you.

Hi cman, Renewed mind is volition with or without a faith in God. It is simply deciding what you are going to live by. You set the rules. You make up your mind as to what the truth is, that is going to enable you overcome the "works of the flesh that lead to death". Of course we are talking about renewing the mind to "The Spirit", which is God. God is Spirit. The Spirit part of you is the God part of you. The God Part of you, is the Spirit within. There is a battlefield in the mind, and you set the rules and decide the outcome. Does that sound like elitism? I believe that every human being, has the same God given potential, to find the true life that comes through tapping into the Spirit of Christ. cman, I agree with you here.

Race consciousness is the consciousness that any group holds. Paul came from a specific religious way of thinking.....his conciousness of what sin was, was built on the Law of moses, his sectarian upbringing, and his conversion to Christianity. All these things where contributors to his Ideal of what the 'flesh' was, as opposed to the Spirit. Romans 7:9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Through the Law is the knowlege of sin........missing the mark of the law that nobody could live up to. Romans 7:18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Paul was teaching renewed mind. Paul was teaching to walk accoring to the good that was "his desire". Paul was teaching that to walk anything less then what the Spirit dictated was to walk in death. I was a Christian for the benefits. The life. The peace. I retain Paul's teaching on renewed mind for the benefits. To be carnally minded is death, but to be Spiritual minded is life and peace. HHHMmmmm, Was "the renewed mind is the key to power" part of TWI teachings?

Hi Oakspear, I've learned a lot since starting this thread. If you want to be a in the Christian elite or any sectarian group, you have to submit to their rules of conduct to be approved. This is the consciousness of the group. There is also a subtle pecking order, but that is in all orginizations. Although one might not be "barred" from an elitist group because of any certain thing, they often feel the effects of not being quite like the rest. Kind of reminds me of a Rush song......... Subdivisions --- In the high school halls In the shopping malls Conform or be cast out Subdivisions --- In the basement bars In the backs of cars Be cool or be cast out There really is nothing wrong with being part of an elitist group, but it has it's effect on how we live our lives. We miss our chances to love all because we have our criteria. God is love, and God loves all, and so should we. What is it that holds us back? Our criteria. Our own complexes. Fear. Disharmony, and separation. If God is love and We have fellowship with God, then we should walk with the same love that God has for all. I believe that we can feel this harmony and that we can sense when we are out of this harmony. Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. The carnal mind that Paul talked of is "race consciousness". The carnal mind is the mind that has not renewed itself to the spiritual reality, that will bring about real abundant life, and peace. The world is separated because people have made it that way. To God the world is NOT separated. The world is one united whole, and when we see it as such, we see it as God sees it. These "visions of grandeur" have a powerful effect on how we 'feel' in every aspect of life. If we feel connected to every other human being, we tend to 'feel the love', that is so often missing. The effect of elitism is always separation.

Hi nandon, I have experience with one of the largest cults in the US back in the 80's and then one of the smallest cults in the us, back in the 90s. From the 80's TWI came some Corp. grads who felt that they had to be delivered from the devil in order to continue their ministries of miricles. They can talk extensivly about their deliverences, and where God has brought them as ministers for the Lord Jesus Christ. I had som false expectations back in the 90's where I actually expected to find a good fellowship in one of these groups. I went through years of being dissatisfied as I "worked out my own salvation", so I am thankful for the time spent. Basically they are harmless. I found that the leader was not what I had thought he was. I was looking for friendship and fellowship and found 'doctrine to be over love' rather then the other way around. My soul was hurt from the whole experience. I'm still healing. I see better now and realize what my false expectations where. Here is the problem I had with the whole thing. I knew I had some issues, but had a hard time thinking I had these demons, that hey could so easily catagorize and cast out. My skepticism showed, and I was never really fully excepted, or so I fealt. I did not fit in with the program, so we where distanced for years, while living in the same, rather small town. The distance actaually did me some good, because I worked out the issues of my false expectations. If you are looking for love, the diliverance ministries are not where it is at. They think themselves to have this deliverance ministry and by golly they will deliver you, and expect your support so they can continue to deliver more people. You will be included on the mailing list and thank you for your support. It is hard to love and get to know people if they think that you have some demons. It is not real in that respect. They actually do attempt to do some good by delving into your past.........there is some profit to this, but the scars will take a lot more then what they are offering. First and formost you must know that you are loved by God. "God loves you" is the first premise of Christianity. "For God so loved the world....." The dualism involved in God against the devil is what keeps these enchantments strong. A belief is a powerful thing. If you believe that you have a devil, it will manifest in the way you expect. God is love...this is the one power.....the rest is man made imaginations. What man imagines in the spiritual, has powerful influence on his outlook on life. Dualism is what fuels all of the hoopla of casting out devils. Renewed mind is the streangth to overcome. Renewed mind to love. As God loves, so do I. That is called an affirmation. An affirmation is part of the renewed mind and has to do with your self talk. If your self talk is ,"I have a devil" you are seeing seperation rather then oneness with God. This sepperation is a lie that you believe. You have to erradicate it by changing your mind and putting a more profitable beleif in it's place. God is love, and God is me. As God loves, so do I. Patrick

I only have a few seconds and this really needs some in depth explination. I know of two ministries that are prodegies if TWI.....though they say they are healed from that. One has been mentioned and the other is I was involved with for a few years.......and it was really a drag. You don't need a minister to cast demons out of you.........Bottom line. Glad you asked and I'll add more when I have more time.

I believe that much of the Bible is elitist. Those who wrote it where writing from there religious perspective. "This forum is for the discussion of religious/spiritual doctrinal beliefs. Since this site is not a religious site, keep all doctrinal discussions in here." This is pretty much the only place I post on this site. My intrest here is spiritual. The topic of this thread is religion in general, but most of us have strong ties to Christianity, so it is understandable that the religion of Christianity, whould dominate the thread. You can only see what you can see...............A lot of what you are saying here is because of certain doctrinal influences. It is easy to disagree with a statement like "the Bible demands the acknowlegement of Christ form cover to cover". Your view of Bible is not the same as everyones. Your view of the Bible is sectarian even within Christianity. The original topic here is not to acknowlege or dismiss the Bible. That is the point; We, with our religious posotions, are all elitists. Patrick

but now I see, Could well be that I read something into your posts that you where not saying. My appologies. Propound, repound, try um out, see how they fly......sure. I'm here because I enjoy talking theology with people that have a similar back ground. I tend to grow more with some dialogue.......thanks for yours. I'm dialoguing..................can't help the passive agressive thing; I had not noticed it. As for arguing scripture, I have spent a lot of time arguing scripture over the internet...........I'm not. I was giving some alternatives to what I thought you where saying. Alternatives are nice even if I missunderstood you. "The seperation of himanity through riligion" tends to bring out hostility. We have all been burned by religion in one way or another and I find a good way to heal is to dialogue. James 5:16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Howdy but now I see. The Bible is a great book to fight over. I was in a group that could pove any dog gone thing they wanted to through the Bible. TWI. There are Theological alternitves, that make more sense, then man choosing heaven or hell through a bowing of the knee........... If Christ is over all then every knee shall bow. Christ will not loose any. None will be lost. Man cuts his losses; God does not. Here is a web site that is commited to Proving that Univiersalism is what the Bible teaches. http://tentmaker.org/ I don't argue Bible anymore, so the website that I posted will have to suffice. Personally I have evolved right out of needing any Biblical platform to support "true spirituality". The Bible is just part of mans attempt to explain God's works in mankind. Personally I am still very Pauline in my Spiritual approach to life. The point here is that elitism uses it's doctrines make others of little, smaller, or of no worth. God is not an elitist....."God is love". Have fun. Patrick

Hello Eyesopen, Yes God is not confined. Exception; each person confines God what they are able to fathom. Christians keep God in a certain box, as do agnostics, atheists, spiritualists, ect, ect. Since we are quoting Einstein. The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness. ( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science) A lot of us have progressed to the point where we know for sure, that we just know enough, to "stand in awe". I have progressed right out of Christianity, and retain much of the Spiritual goodness that I received, while bound to that religion. 1 Thessalonians 5:21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Good advice from Paul. Just started a new thread from the content of another.................it is a discussion. I have no problem disagreeing with folks, and I spect folks have no problem disagreeing with me. I'm not a messy discusser............. Wow though, the turn this thread took. As our elitism topples we progress, and not until. Sometimes we get left behind, because the world just is not going to wait forever for us to progress. One thing is sure........progress. Jump on or get run over. Patrick

I've heard it said before when asked, "what religion are you?" "I'm in the one that God is in". Interesting, God is in all religion, and God has no need of religion. In all reliegion there are the "extreemists". It seems that most folks just settle for passiveness. When I find myself in times of trouble Mother Mary comes to me Speaking words of wisdom, let it be. And in my hour of darkness She is standing right in front of me Speaking words of wisdom, let it be. Let it be, let it be. Whisper words of wisdom, let it be. And when the broken hearted people Living in the world agree, There will be an answer, let it be. For though they may be parted there is Still a chance that they will see There will be an answer, let it be. Let it be, let it be. Yeah There will be an answer, let it be. And when the night is cloudy, There is still a light that shines on me, Shine on until tomorrow, let it be. I wake up to the sound of music Mother Mary comes to me Speaking words of wisdom, let it be. Let it be, let it be. There will be an answer, let it be. Let it be, let it be, Whisper words of wisdom, let it be --The Beatles (Lennon/McCartney)

That is interesting................I had not thought of it as 3x back at you in some carmatic way. If you take your hand and put it in a fist and point your index finger at anthing you have three fingers left and they are all pointing back at you. Patrick