cman

Well George you need an interest in the bible to learn new things if you want to. Just cuz we got burned by twi doesn't mean some things are not still worth the trouble of searching for. Depends on your interests I suppose. But if your proof of whatever is good enough for you, I say that's cool. There are others who seek not to prove to others but to themselves things that you either are not interested in, or have decided that are not real. Same goes for anyone, including me. --- My interest in the bible is secondary to my interest in what they were talking about. Which cannot be seen in the words of the bible itself. In other words I'm not ever going into some sort of biblical research to find a thing. But I will not exclude it from input either. Nor will I exclude things I have not seen or experienced that I have heard.

It's an addiction to always be right or appear right in any subject. And this doesn't just come from places like twi. But it really pertains to the subject at hand. It's a domination masculine men with men conquering thing. Only held in check by the feminne nature of the person. There's your "homo" men with men crap right here in this thread holding a gun to someone's head. And YEAh I've done it too. Not apologetic or kind or tender, along with the masculine drive to know-conquer others instead of their own selves which is our design in part. The natural role of the masculine is to conquer yourself. While the feminine keeps the love coming. This is the way it should be in short. But it has been perverted. Wars start like this-Murders....Suicides.

Hi Eyesopen. There are many things missing from these homosexual discussions. I wouldn't know where to start. Perhaps the 7 days of Genesis or when the man leaves his father and mother to be one with his wife. Also in Genesis. Or the many references to man and woman that are not referring to two separate individuals. But then I'd be telling what I've come to know and continue in learning. When the answers are hidden in plain sight. I do not want to give answers, just get some real thinking going. And a person can see when shown, not by men or women. But from within your own selves as well as that which we breathe. A suggestion- Don't be drawn into a battle where the framework keeps changing.

You know.... Some folks ideas of "doctrine" are quite different then others. If it's an discussion of what the bible means. There is only one to open it's treasures. If it's about what some person thinks it means, I care not for it. If they insist on me believing it. Been there, not going again. I can reflect on the thoughts of others without them being mine. But taking them into consideration. The final vote is never final.

Always a volatile subject, no matter in what context. Religion, society, politics, your own home. I believe there are far more weightier or pressing problems that have brought about this question in any situation. The sheer ignorance of the makeup of a man or woman from biological to psychological to spiritual and back up to biological makeup of men and women. The feminine and the masculine live in each person. Till we can get some kind of sight of who we are individually, the rest is sideshows and reactions to unknown forces within the human. To call being a homosexual a sin, is so far from what sin there may be if any. It's still the outside of the cup. While the inside is undiscovered being drawn away by the outer things. And yes I have been through some mind changing thoughts on this subject. Being religious or not.

Why do you use was and not is or will. 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Perhaps this hasn't happened or is happening and has happened. Maybe it's talking about real people?

Well everyone would have a different opinion on what is good I'd say. Good point though!...lol :)

In the bigger picture it is Good I think. Traveling through that picture is good in the long run.

Thanks for being honest in how you see this Oakspear. I'd like to see more real honesty without fear. Not saying there isn't, just would like to see more.

If there was no good would there also be no evil? But no, evil is a necessity that good comes. Not that we should do it or have it done. It just happens. To bring out the real you and then you can see you. Pain suffering death are all part of the process. As well as good wellness and life. ------- Deuteronomy 32 33Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps. 34Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures? 35To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. 36For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left. 37And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted, 38Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection. 39See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. 40For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. 41If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. 42I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy. -------- Figuring out who the enemy is, is the trick.

Another look at it from this person's perspective. http://www.openingthe7seals.com/Openingthe7seals.html ---- There are many layers within each seal being opened. Seal, Angel, Trumpet.....and more words to communicate.

http://lifechgcoach.com/StagesofPersonalGrowth.aspx

Whatever you call it, they are real. http://www.support4change.com/stages-intro.html

Thanks for considering the questions Roy. How about facing every thought you have ever had that was actually serious or real. Like you meeting you with no one else's influence. Meaning your actual thoughts. Not even looking in a mirror. But you looking at you. Having to face yourself. Honestly without any thing else to hinder. Like going off into solitude for days weeks months to face yourself. And clear some things up, as well as peace. Would forgiveness grace mercy and blessing be there? I think so.

Well... I should have stayed out of this thread. Is love rational and/or logical? Or is there MORE TO IT!

Taking my statements as accusative is being an idiot. And cutting any discussion about anything at all. Anything perceived as different is inflammatory to some. But not to others.

Have you even looked up anything about world views? Or the many links sirguess has posted? If you don't want to look you can't see. Which is fine with me. Shoot just google the thing and there will be results. Or wikipedia helps. But the understanding comes when seeing it living. Which involves more then world views. And o yes slap religion on there. O ouch. I've seen enough to know that religion has contributed. Though it is not the all in all. Or even close. If you rule out the unseen then the seen remains the same.

If you are asking me, I say nothing is greater or lesser. But stagnant or moving. A rational approach yes, but why should we be bound to that? We can use it to move on to other ideas and thinking. Comparing World View with World Domination is not rational. If you know about WorldViews.

Funny how some are ready to hang anyone that speaks of their own thinking. And is deciding for the speaker that he is saying that all should think like he does. Sorry that is not the case here. I don't see any recruitment tactics or 'think like me' going on here. But to understand another's thinking is somehow beyond the grasp of what would be the rational approach.

as if rational is somehow some sort of pinnacle of human capacity when it is merely a rung on a seeming infinite ladder and too, rational language (or any level of language) can be adopted by magic (self-centered) worldviews ...as some can be firmly rational towards a narrow bandwidth of things...and quite un-rational towards a wide variety of others but every worldview we transcend has structural elements that we need to carry forward ...or our going forward will include embedded shadows of what we left behind so...we would do well to make sure we have a full experience of whatever stage we are moving through before moving on and...not that you are...but "don't get stuck at early rational thought for too long"...like so many ...just remember that there is plenty of space to keep moving as radical as the leap from myth to rational is the leap from rational to more pluralistic and social values and worldviews "preparing to leap again" is an attitude we would do well to develop at any level +ODD edited to add this link to an older thread on worldviews Personally, I thought this to be easy to understand. And handled this all before it happened here on this thread. Cause it happens alot, twi is a great example of it imo.

George, your own words have said you don't know what sirg is talking about. The more you speak of what some one says that you don't understand the less you understand because of your self imposed limits. Which can be over ridden by the way, and will be. If you don't want to see, you will not, till the time to see cannot be stopped.

So are you a machine that can only work within one idea? And lots of folks experience what sirg is talking about. So arrogant and condescending would not be the word I would use. I would say this is life to many and not to many. Furthermore those that think arrogant and condescending is something some else is doing, then most likely that person is offended if anyone knows more then themselves. Which is an arrogant and condescending place to be.

Yeah, waysider, music certainly stirs thoughts.

Are thoughts real? The what where why how applies here as well. Like where do they come from. how many sources? Can they be seen? Is an idea as real as a tree, a building, a person? Do they take us anywhere? For real?