cman

I should have said-animals are not the point. or something like that.

Good question Jerry. I always had thought he was talking about John. But Paul also talks about visions and revelations revealed to himself in the same chapter.

What do you guys make of this. How is that Paul could not tell? Does that throw a kink in the structure hose that wierwille built? And his whole 'fellowship' scheme?

Belle, KJV: 1 Co 13:12 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. KJV: 2 Co 3:18 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. KJV: Jas 1:23 23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: KJV: Re 4:6 6And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. KJV: Re 15:2 2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. KJV: Re 21:18 18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. KJV: Re 21:21 21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. It's all about the eye and what you see. Face to face is not something that has to be after death, as in graveyard type death. 8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. We abide in what it says to but face to face is also something that happens. 21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again. These things also happen now. To depart and be with Christ. Simply put in order to understand. It can be compared to meditation and prayer. No man can see God and live, so one must die to be with Christ. Not literally, but letting our will and self die to yield to Christ. Maybe more then you expected, but just a few thoughts.

Yes Lindy-a perspective among many perspectives. I don't launch into a frenzy over one but consider and know of more. Which brightens and focus' the bigger picture.

I don't think any of those verses are talking about animals. But what happens in the minds of men and woman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5wnhO8gkno

People will change Jerry. Some will change kicking and screaming but it will happen. Young's Literal Translation- 21`Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things? 23and then I will acknowledge to them, that -- I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness. 24`Therefore, every one who doth hear of me these words, and doth do them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house upon the rock; 25and the rain did descend, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell not, for it had been founded on the rock. 26`And every one who is hearing of me these words, and is not doing them, shall be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; 27and the rain did descend, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and its fall was great.' This is talking about the ever present now imo.

Watching and experiencing the old die and the new come alive can be punishment in a way. The wages of sin is death-good thing-let it die-but the gift and grace are freely given.

Garth, Who said anything about "punishment" besides you. As if you know what it means?

And Christ spans all time. Unlimited access for every soul. Who is going to go against this kind of power and win permanent death? What is death anyway but a transformation. Jesus himself said he himself would be destroyed and rebuilt. Kind of puts the word destroy in a different light.

Hi Abi and Good mornin', I do believe all from Adam to Jesus have their places in heaven already. There are many mansions, so plenty of room imo.

All win one way or another. No one is left out of salvation. Some want it now. Some see it now. Some will see it after they die. hmmmm die....two ways or more to see that.... It's a lot to think about and i can post more, but gotta get some sleep. Peace

If Adam didn't do what he did then Jesus couldn't have brought to perfection as he did. In the day that you eat you shall surely die. You will become like gods knowing good and evil. The first Adam gave his life to save ours. Jesus finished the work. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Had Adam not done what he did we would not have righteousness. Why do you think the first and last Adam are compared so much?

Christ has always been the Savior. The last Adam underestimated. The first is underestimated also.

Back to the letter i suppose..... So who in hell did he become? And don't bother me with no curse cause it's done with. You can have it. Or not. Not me.

The condemnation and curse are done away with, even in the old testament it was an illusion unchecked. Just as it is today for those who still live under the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the heart. Jesus exposed it, the curse the devil, for what it is and it died with him. Still it takes some learning of the letter for some in order to progress from carnal to spiritual. And that letter is more then the bible. Be a damn shame if one had to know the friggin bible to know God. Has he limited himself to books? Can he not teach Himself to us? Where are we looking for this God to answer us?

Now your getting it Free Soul. Just takes a little sense to put some things together. Gen 1:1 In the beginning.... What beginning? Yours. 1 John 1 This is the light that is spoken of.

Excellent point WW. My oldest son is ADD according to the tests they gave my younger son who they thought was ADD. lol...it was kind of funny when they sent us the test to watch and test our youngest son and see that he wasn't ADD but the test fit our oldest son perfectly just about. And yeah our oldest was a loner and had some bad habits that were not usual. We continued to point them out to him fairly consistently, but not in a way that would start some big uproar, just a reminding him of the fact that some of these habits might hold him back or hinder him in the things that he wants to accomplish. That was around 7 to even now when he is 17. And he got harassed at school as he grew older and the principal stepped in and warned the entire student body of harassment and even of physical assault. Many of the teachers said he would probably be running companies that the ones bugging him would be working for. So really, you just might have quite the genius right there with you. And the point is, and it is what you are already doing, gentle reminders and getting the right info about these things. Talking about it with the teachers and others that know of the positives of a child that seems to be 'different'.

Hi Abi, This a challenge for most people in general, but may help. In your specific situation I'm sure there are more that are quite similar. Try to help him make his world a place where he doesn't have to fight anything. In other words whatever problem there is get that problem into the right hands. Hands that can handle whatever is being fought against. For example- A person at work told another person at work that I was taking longer breaks then I should which is not true. Now I could have tryed to handle it myself but insterad I went straight to a power greater then me, which is my boss and told her. This took the problem out of my hands and into the proper hands to handle that particular situation. So a problem with him being harassed at school is not really his problem- it's the ones who are doing the harassing. Therefore a power greater then them must intercede. Keep going up the power chain till you get them to act. Of course I think you already know this. But don't give up and stop looking for more help. Your child can get help, more is known then some think. So you may need to educate them in order for them to act. And then they should know where to get that help. It's their JOB. Perhaps they need to be reminded of this. Being harassed at school is against the school rules for one thing. Whoever is doing it should be reported.

(copy and pasted from a security inter-office email, taking out the local info) I have received information from law enforcement sources in reference to a new scam being used to obtain your identity. This scam has been reported in 11 states. The victim receives a telephone call from someone acting as if they are from the clerk of court's office. The caller informs the victim that they ignored a mailed request for the victim to appear for jury duty. When the victim denies ever receiving such a request the caller in a stern and rather forceful tone, advises that there has been a warrant issued for the victims arrest. They further advise that the victim needs to provide a social security number and a date of birth in order to cancel the warrant. In some cases they have even requested a credit card number to confirm the victims identity. Do to the strong tactics of the caller and everyone's fear of being arrested the callers have been very successful in obtaining the requested information. The Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Federal Court System have posted alerts on their respective web sites about this scam. REMEMBER: NEVER GIVE YOUR PERSONAL INFORMATION OUT OVER THE TELEPHONE ON INBOUND CALLS, UNLESS YOU ARE 100% CERTAIN OF WHO YOU ARE TALKING TO. IF YOU EVER RECIEVE A CALL FROM SOMEONE CLAIMING YOU HAVE AN ARREST WARRANT YOU CAN VERIFY THE VALIDITY OF THE WARRANT BY CALLING YOUR LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY AND HAVING THEM CHECK FOR YOU. IF YOU RECIEVE A CALL LIKE THIS, PLEASE REPORT IT TO YOUR LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY.

Let me put a simple way Geo, Let's say there's a God that is simple yet immensely powerful. And yet so easy to see and let this God work, that it's unbelievable. I'd have to let that God show you cause I can't. You look at me through your perception and want me to explain something. I can speak words but what you do with them is out of my hands. So I won't just banter and bicker about something you say you don't want anyway.

Plenty, but they would probably be different then others, or the same also in many ways. For myself? naaahhhh I ain't nothin'-just nothin' being able to distinguish something.

Hi George, hmmm no I'll pass on that one. besides why question my beliefs, or what you think I believe anyway if you want to listen, fine, but I don't think this is the case same old analytical, disintegration tactics that are a waste of my time I will say that I didn't expect what I got. In fact never considered the idea as I do now. God, Devil, Spirit.... What do they really mean anyways?

4I am as one mocked of his neighbour, who calleth upon God, and he answereth him: the just upright man is laughed to scorn. 5He that is ready to slip with his feet is as a lamp despised in the thought of him that is at ease. 6The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke God are secure; into whose hand God bringeth abundantly. 7But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: 8Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. 9Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? 10In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. 11Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat? from Job Certainly more then we are used to hearing. And the words do mean more then what's on the surface imo.