Billy D

Tsk, tsk....get your facts straight, Trust. STFI/CES hasn't "gotten rid" of anyone. They did lay off two part-time employees (both teens), and three other young full-timers left for various reasons (school, life, etc). They most certainly did not "get rid" of Jeff Blackburn, and he did not leave for financial reasons (i.e.: because STF couldn't afford to pay him), or out of anger, etc, toward STF "Leadership." However, his reasons are his business, so I will say no more about it here. I will say that we had lunch the other day and were laughing as we imagined some of the idiotic stuff that would probably be said here as a result of his departure. Ironic, no? Finally, there are no further layoffs on the way. However, if you have PROOF as to the contrary, please do present it. Otherwise, stick to the facts. PEACE, ~BD

Not true, though I'm sure the JAL situation will be a large topic of conversation. One of the main purposes of the meeting (as I understand from talking to folks involved and reading what has been published) is to publicly address some of the questions and issues that have been raised here and other places over the past 5 or so years. And how do you define a "legitimate" question??

C'mon Tzaia...you know quite well that there are plenty of people in that office (and others who attend events, fellowships, etc) that don't believe that it is ungodly or sinful to fear. She's just being honest, and I wouldn't blame her for being terrified, "woman of God" or no. Just check the nightly news and you see the kind of crazy crap that goes on in every big and small town. I confess things publicly and privately...freedom from fear, the righteousness that I have in Christ, etc, etc...and still fall short of the mark. Often. Thankfully, Christ died so that I don't have to be perfect and always hit the mark. I'm sure the Lord understands godmadegirl's desire to live without fear and would forgive her for being terrified if she were in the situation described above.

I did go to Grace for a while (played drums in one of the worship bands), and I agree that it is a fabulous church. It was quite a haul to go that far north, so lately we have been going to E 91st St, primarily for their Married For Keeps ministry. Fantastic!!! The demographic is changing, slowly but surely. Though I dearly love the many people I have had the pleasure to meet and serve with over the past 7 years of my involvement with CES/STF, I'm VERY happy to see much of the TWI influence go away.

Hey DWBH - just "flying by" again, and <whoa> answering questions! Stop the presses! So here's the skinny: no, I don't consider myself a "member" of CES/STF. I worked in the office several years back, but have had a "real job" (please pardon the sarcasm - I worked hard to earn my wage(which was not large, by any means) while at CES and consider it a "real job") since then. I am personally not very "involved" these days, but mostly because I'm relatively newly married with a lovely little girl - THEY are my "ministry" right now. I don't believe in or agree with everything that is taught/practiced by CES/STF, but I do agree with a lot of it, particularly in regard to the trinity (or lack thereof), state of the dead, to what extend God is in control/responsible for what happens now, etc. While I believe wholeheartedly in the existence today of the manifestations of holy spirit (or gifts of The Holy Spirit, if you will), I do agree that prophecy in particular was mis-applied and abused, particularly by the Re*$@rs and KAG. I always felt that the CES/STF practice of "personal prophecy" was a bit like a Christian Psychic Friends Network; however, do I believe that I can pray for someone and get a word from the Lord for them? Yes. There have been many instances when individuals have come to me with words they believed were from the Lord and that I could bear witness to in my heart. Edification, exhortation, comfort - delivered in a "personal" way (meaning to me as an individual as opposed to a corporate body of believers), but still just plain ole prophecy in my book. Now, do I believe that this practice should involve "seeking a word" from a "prophet" so as to know what the Lord would say to me? No way. I seek the Lord, and sometimes He answers Himself, sometimes He answers through others. Finally, I don't totally or implicitly trust JWS, but I do respect his earnest love of God and his personal spiritual discipline. I admire his wealth of knowledge concerning OT history, antiquities, and orientalisms - but then again I'm a history geek, so go figure. I do trust his spiritual and intellectual judgment....to a point. I have been to many churches and heard many preachers, and in my personal experience his teaching aligns more with what I see and read in the Bible than any other. Again, my own observation and personal opinion. Now, with that said, I would like to thank you for your first "bump," because in the 7 or so years I have known JWS I have NEVER heard him wax nostalgic about VPW, and would have obviously been concerned if he had made the same statement to me that he made to you. Certainly an agenda item for our next conversation.

....or perhaps she has a life of her own and doesn't care to get involved with every detail of her father's life. She's a grown woman with children and has much more to worry about than the nitty gritty of STF leadership squabbles.

Hey Garth, I really do appreciate your acknowledgment of my point re: DG's daughter. I was floored that no one said anything sooner. As for the rest of your post: I'm not sure what "whining" you're referring to - feel free to provide examples and I'll look them over and see if I agree. I usually only post here when I see something stated as fact that I know is NOT a fact, or to provide whatever background and personal experience I do have that may shed more light on a given topic. Example being my post on the JWS Corps grad topic regarding his history of learning with/from and debating with other Christian scholars. Frankly, it doesn't bother me that people here ask tough questions and demand honest answers. However, I AM bothered when I see things assumed or stated as fact that just flat out are not true. And please re-read my post: I am not whining about the leadership (and ex-leadership) of STF being in the spotlight/crosshairs. I completely agree that they've put themselves there, and therefore get to deal with the consequences. My issue was only with the fact that DG's daughter was "collateral damage," so to speak, and I apologize if it appeared otherwise. Now, I can assure you I have a perfectly working "pair" and therefore do not need to "grow a pair" (I can show you pictures of my daughter as proof if you like http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif), so please do not assume that I am merely an "apologist" and won't hold the STF leadership's collective feet to the fire. Make no mistake: they are not MY leaders. I do not belong to STF. The ONLY "group" I belong to is the Body of Christ, and my ONLY leader is the Lord Jesus Christ. Period. I will not bow to or pledge allegiance to ANY man (or Board, for that matter).

Seriously? So just because they're not renting the facility they have no expenses??? No upkeep, no food, no water, no electricity??? In fact, renting a facility is the CHEAP way to go!!! And do a quick Google search of Men's and Women's retreats - the ones I found ranged in price from $100 - 200+ for three days NOT INCLUDING room and board (usually a hotel but some were in cabin-style locations). Though the camp is a bit rustic, ALL of the cabins have apartment-style interiors and have electricity and bathrooms with showers <gasp!!!>, and <double gasp!!!> beds! And VERY good food (thanks to a fantastic chef who can squeeze every last penny out of a dollar - I should know: he catered my wedding!!!!). dmiller - as I said earlier in another post, I don't blame you for being angry - I know that you feel blindsided by what's been going on over the past few years. But this is NOT TWI (or "der ministry" as you and others love to say): no one is getting rich off of that $195 registration fee, and they're certainly not "fleecing the flock." I know (from someone who has seen the numbers) that Camp Vision breaks even when all is said and done. I see nothing wrong in that.

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At one point in the early-to-mid 90's, John worked toward a Master of Divinity degree at Reformed Theological Seminary in NC (not SC). I don't believe that he completed the degree, and I'm really not sure why, though I'm sure that his increased work and travel schedule with CES played some role. So yes, he has engaged with other scholars to debate and learn. At one point, both JWS and MG submitted papers to the Apologetic Research Coalition (ARC), and I know that this ended when the ARC cut off communication over doctrinal differences. Several years back John participated in a debate over the state of the dead on a live mainstream Christian talk radio show - I have heard the audio and will say that John handled it very well and the other gentleman was the one who tended to be mocking and derogatory. Finally, John has an excellent relationship with The Society for Biblical Studies (http://www.sbsedu.org/) and has worked with it's founder Peter Miano (who is an ordained Methodist minister and a trinitarian) to run multiple trips to Israel and one trip to Greece/Italy. I attended the "Footsteps of Paul" trip to Greece/Italy and sat in on quite a few excellent discussions/debates between John and Peter and always walked away blessed and enlightened by their mutual respect, not only for each other, but for God's written word. Taz, I have to take issue a bit with your statement here. Ex-way people USED to be STF's bread and butter, but that has been changing (albeit slowly) ever since the BU and TorT websites really took off. So, what you helped to start is actually helping to dilute the TWI influence, bit by bit. (Yes, I do believe in giving credit where credit is due. RM has worked very hard to make the sites what they are today, but there's no doubt that the initial idea and framework started with you.) By far, most of the new people coming onto the mailing list and coming to events are people who have no background with TWI, and for the most part have questioned mainstream theological teaching for years before finding the websites. My point here is that these "doctrinal stances" are in no way unique to TWI. You know me, and may remember that I do not have a background in TWI. I grew up in a Easter/Christmas Methodist family, attended Vacation Bible School as a kid, and all of my family members believe in the trinity and are very active in mainstream churches (Calvary Chapel and Baptist for my parents). My wife and I occasionally attend a large, local, non-denominational church, and LOVE it. Anyone who knows me understands that I have spent most of my life questioning my personal beliefs and arrived at my current set of theological beliefs after actively "trying on" many other belief systems. I can honestly say that my personal study of the Bible has lead me to many of the same conclusions as STF, and I'm not nearly the only one. Frankly, I could care less about TWI. If there weren't new, non-TWI folks finding the websites, coming to events, etc., I would probably agree with your assertion. But it's just not that simple. :)

I haven't been around here in quite a while and just dropped in....and this is what I find. Seriously, Tzaia - shame on you. You position yourself on this board as someone who is "in the know" about CES/STF, and you say with "reasonable assuredness" that home office staff/board members would be sent on a $4,000 tour for FREE??? Are you serious?? I was blessed to go on the Footsteps of Paul tour a few years back, I was home office staff, and I was only able to go because a certain couple (not home office staff or board members) and a few family members donated money (all of it completely unsolicited, mind you) because they knew that the trip would have a huge impact on my spiritual growth. Same was true when a home office staffer went on the last Israel trip. Your assumption is not only completely baseless, but is also irresponsible, because it leads others to believe that CES/STF operates in a way in which it does not. CES/STF board members and staffers don't get to go jet-setting around the world with the money that people donate to the ministry. And even though board members and their families can technically attend annual events for free, in most cases they pay full price anyway - just like anyone else would. For the record (i.e. - for the sake of other posters): I know Tzaia, which is one of the reasons I'm being so hard on him/her. Though he/she does have some insight into CES/STF home office dealings, he/she hasn't had direct interaction with home office folks for years. Ironically, something good actually came out of this thread: my wife just informed me that a staffer checking out Greasespot saw this thread and realized that the link posted on the STF website lead to the SBS home page, instead of the actual STF Israel trip page, which has more detailed information and contact information for SBS should one have more questions. The link has been corrected and the veil of secrecy lifted (sorry...couldn't resist). Finally, to Ham: yeah, the economy sucks and many (including my family) are feeling the heat, but having the trip is hardly "out of touch." The fact is that quite a few of the people who are going have known about the trip for years and have been saving money for the opportunity to walk in the footsteps of Jesus Christ and see the "homeland" of our faith first hand. John S didn't just wake up one morning and say "We need to organize a trip to Israel and ask cash strapped folks to scrape up $4,000 for it!" Also, I'm sure that John S and the folks at SBS (if you check out their website you'll see that the founder - Peter Miano - divides his time between Boston and Israel) are taking a long, hard look at recent events in Gaza to determine if the trip will actually happen. Only time will tell.

Hey y'all. It's been a while but I stopped by and saw this thread, so I couldn't help but to chime in.... John Schoenheit performed our wedding ceremony about a year and a half ago. My wife and I chose him because his deep felt, earnest love for God and his committment to live a godly lifestyle. He really does try, on a day to day basis, to live a life that pleases God. He doesn't always hit the mark, but he genuinely does his best. Here's an example. A few years back a misunderstanding occurred between some of the youth staff and some of the adult staff at CES/STF's annual Teens & Twenties Camp (looong story, I won't get into it here). Basically, some of the youth staff were insulted because they felt that they were treated like children by a few adult staff members during a morning staff meeting. Both "sides" quickly polarized and a few of the adult leaders assumed a "we need to teach these kids a spiritual lesson" posture. But not Schoenheit. He heard that some of the youth staff members were hurt and were too intimidated to approach the main adult leaders, so he gently asked to address a group of the youth staff. John accounted to them and told them that if he had said something that offended them, it wasn't his intention. He was broken up that an offense had occurred, and at one point in his address he actually came to tears. What struck me in John's behavior is that while the majority of the "spiritually mature" adults were focused on pointing out the "spiritual immaturity" of the youths and scolding them like bad children, John approached them as equals with a heart to RECONCILE the relationship and come to a resolution. To be fair, a majority of the adult staff members weren't involved, and only two or three in particular were really spearheading the polarization. And out of those who were involved I really only saw that behavior consisently in two of them. One I genuinely beleive was just trying to keep some semblance of order and "law" - which is an ABSOLUTE necessity in a camp packed with 150+ teenagers and 20-somethings!! My point is that the "big Board Member, Bible Scholar, and Leader" John Schoenheit really modeled Christ's love and compassion that day, and I've seen him do it many more times. Yes, he is definitely more of a scholar than a natural, intuitive people person, but I genuinely believe that his heart is in the right place. I would not have let him preside over the greatest, most beautiful day in my life if that were not the case. Thanks to those who will read this with an open heart and an open mind. Then again, I could just a brainwashed cult member with no sense of judgement.... ;) Blessings, ~B

Nope, haven't "looked into it" and my pronouns are just fine, thank you! Just had my first wedding anniversary, so looking into these sortid details wasn't my highest priority. And just so that you know: no, you won't hear from me on this. It's not my job to look into something and report it back here. I'll contact the people inolved directly, and everyone else here should too. If you don't get the answers you want, wash your hands of them and the entire situation. I speak to and see Jeff and John on a regular basis, so there's no need to "locate" them. And no, I doubt that either one of them will "beam down" soon. This here starship captain is going to sign off....for good. Time to move on. Many blessings to ALL of you....even those I don't agree with. Peace. ~B

Hey there Tz - thanks for the shout out. I do take issue with what you insinuate in the above quote - that there was a long standing desire and conspiracy to oust MG. There may have been differences in opinion and personality conflict (with one person in particular), but there was no conspiracy. Period. It was MG's idea to have DG come in the first place! Please be careful here as well, because a bit of the same was going on with the MG side, though it wasn't done here. Letters were sent out, folks on the CES/STF mailing list were contacted. My wife and I were personally witness to phone calls and conversations where such things things as "it's a war" and "it's time to take sides" were being said. In the end, both "sides" are ultimately to blame, and I personally have suffered some of the consequences. Thankfully, my wife and I are working through it and moving on with our lives. I pray daily for all involved - in my opinion, it's the best hope for a positive outcome.

Actually, the items posted here WERE the basis for the lawsuits. Yes, plural. The contention behind the lawsuits was that the letters and posts here constituted assassination of character against M & KA Gr. And please understand that "they" never blamed anyone here for the lawsuits, nor did "they" ask for them. The decision to start legal proceedings was made only by M & KA Gr. I personally would be surprised to see any of "them" respond to your post. Despite your sign off of "peace" and your claim that you have no sarcastic or evil intention, your posts have come across as a bit mocking and aggressive. In my opinion, at least! Now, your claim that this thread was opened at the request of CES/STF "leadership" is very interesting and I'll look into it. I'm also interested in the fact that someone involved asked you to lurk around GSC and report on the vibe and goings on here. It does seem disingenuous that they won't post here, but would ask someone to "keep a finger on the pulse"...so to speak. Really, for the two main people you address here the lawsuits certainly play a factor in their failure to respond in a public forum - last I heard, both are still under suit. Peace, ~B