zbrick

So which is it exactly? Was Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille a Christian “genius” on his famous (or should I say, infamous) book, Jesus Christ is NOT God, OR, did this make him one of the biggest religious Heretics of all time??? Is God supposedly telling the world here that this proves, “Even a broken clock is correct at least twice in one day”? Both Steve Lortz and chockfull seem like they really don’t want to throw out the bathwater along with the baby here. It’s sort of like saying, yeah, Victor Paul Wierwille may have been a moral reprobate, but he just had an uncanny knack for “rightly dividing the Word of God, a.k.a. The Bible”. My good buddy, WordWolf, stated earlier in this thread that the “regulars” here on Grease Spot Café were out to help people identify “wolves in sheep’s clothing”, as well as pointing out the “toxic doctrines” of the Way Ministry. Most Christians familiar with the Way Ministry would probably agree that THE most “toxic doctrine” associated with that organization – bar none – is its stance on, Jesus Christ is NOT God. Muhammad never claimed to be God, Buddha never claimed to be God, ditto Brigham Young, ditto Joseph Smith. Yet, there are at least a dozen Biblical scriptures which Jesus Christ claims to be either equal with God, or the same as God. What most Way believers, not to mention ex-WAYfers like those here on Grease Spot Café, refer to Christians who believe in the Trinity – which is about 99.9 percent of them as, “Trinitarians”. Most other people, who were never associated with The Way, would simply view this as a, Traditional Christian belief. For someone either currently or formerly associated with The Way to claim they NEVER engaged in a “heated discussion” with a Christian over the subject of whether or not Jesus Christ is actually God, then they must’ve been simply “sitting on the proverbial sidelines and mailing it in” so to speak, because I definitely had more than my share of these types of discussions with these people. But even more importantly, for new people who are currently involved in The Way, what exactly would somebody recommend as a good Bible-based church to get involved with instead? Other than just saying to them, “good luck”. If believing in a church that supports the “Trinity”, is viewed as a “toxic doctrine”, then would you endorse either a Mormon or Jehovah Witness church? Oh, but wait a second, neither the Mormons nor the Jehovah Witnesses believe in Speaking in Tongues – ouch! So perhaps Victor Paul Wierwille’s Power for Abundant Living class is the greatest foundational teaching of The Bible in our lifetimes – ya think? What an excellent subject to discuss on an Internet blog or something like that. Just sayin.

Okay, my badd on this one. Come to think of it, a UPS driver (or a "brownie") is probably a lot better paid and compensated than most American workers these days. So allow me to replace "Martindale working for UPS" with the term, "Way Ministry lawsuits (including some that actually involved Craig Martindale)", which can be amply found here on the Grease Spot Café website. I'll also replace the term, "Eternal Salvation" with, "edifying my life as both a human being and a Christian" – does that make YOU happy, WordWolf dawg??? But, of course, that leads to the question here, how the heck does reading about all the allegedly Way Ministry-related Court suits for the past years, decades, quarter centuries, etc., help "edify" my personal life as both a Christian as well as a human being? What exactly is the "profit" of studying and memorizing all this particular information? The name of the blog posting in question was: "Since initiating the Holy Bible, has God 'flipped-flopped' on Fornication?", dtd. 8-15-12, with a photo of Marcus and Joni Lamb of Daystar Ministries – why YOU and penworks chose to come on here and perpetuate this lie that that posting was ALL ABOUT, "The Passing of the Patriarch" is totally beyond me. I can only assume that you're so obsessed with "hating" Way leaders of decades and quarter centuries past, you needed somebody with an actual pulse and heartbeat to target your venom – aside from the guy, of course, who's supposedly living in "exile" down there in Toledo Ohio. See, WordWolf dawg, the fact that you've got about a half dozen GSC "regulars" here bobbling their proverbial heads up and down agreeing with you on what exactly this posting was actually all about doesn't really change "the truth". It's not too much different than the masses claiming the Emperor is wearing a beautiful robe, when in fact, the Emperor has no clothes. If I knew who you were beyond the WordWolf pseudonym, I'd be more than happy to make a sizable wager with you and ask either a high school English teacher or a college English professor what THEY thought that blog posting was really ALL ABOUT. I have indeed read thru, "The Passing of the Patriarch", to which I have to say, I'd love to see the notarized evidence that Victor Paul Wierwille authorized his permission to be publicly released like that AFTER his death. For example, I love my two sons to pieces, although, sometimes, they disappoint me. At some points, I might confide in a close friend or a relative on how should I respond to a certain situation with one of my sons. That DOES NOT authorize my close friend to use my statements, expressing my periodic disappointment towards one (or both) of my sons to be spewed out to the general public in the event of my death. Chris Geer sort of reminds me of Ben Thomas, a.k.a. -- the "professional bodyguard" who was comedienne Roseanne Barr's third husband. Can you say, "a bodyguard desperate to exploit their '15 minutes of fame'?" I did find it sort of amusing, however, to read about how Geer enjoyed taking off Dr. Wierwille's shoes and clothes anytime he was tired and ready to go to bed – oh well, to each his own, I always say. But getting back to my original point of this particular posting, how the heck does perpetuating this smut known as, "The Passing of the Patriarch" EDIFY my life (or anybody's life, for that matter) to become a better Christian, or a better human being? Where's the PROFIT behind that? I don't see any responses from you on this one, WordWolf dawg? The sounds of the crickets here from my questions are absolutely deafening. WordWolf • Posts: 11,997 • Joined: 13-June 02 zbrick • Posts: 35 • Joined: 23-November 06 See, I'm perfectly content here on GSC with just seeking out old friends from the past or paying my respects to a few brothers and sisters in Christ who have passed on to be with the Lord. But when you're spreading lies here, especially when they're indirectly affecting me and one of my former blog posts, I think I have every right to step in and set the record straight.

When I talk about Eternal Salvation, I'm basically referring to eternity in Heaven as opposed to eternity in Hell. More specifically, Romans 10:9. Secondly, as far as the "Regulars" here on Grease Spot Cafe, you've got basically the same 5-10 folks who ASSUME they're helping people identify "Wolves in Sheep's Clothing" (or just another cheap excuse to publicly trash Way leadership) -- YET, they can't even render a simple answer here on whether the "Trinity" is Biblically accurate or not??? WordWolf even said himself/herself that they help identify all the "toxic doctrine" taught by the Way Ministry. Sure sounds like all these former Way Corps grads don't really know what the heck they're talking about. But hey, I'll let it go if they don't really want to address my question. No big deal.

It's also interesting that you feel, Eternal Salvation is just a "non-issue", I sure hope you remember that statement come Judgment Day. But by your very own statement here Wolf dawg, specifically about "…twi and its toxic doctrines…" , so what do YOU have to say about the Trinity??? Founding Way President Victor Paul Wierwille wrote the famous book, "Jesus Christ is NOT God" – Was that the God's honest truth on Dr. Wierwille's part, OR, was that yet another example of what YOU refer to as "toxic doctrine" by the Way Ministry? Most ex-WAYfers, whom I know, still hold onto this as the God's honest truth despite whatever they may think about Dr. Wierwille's morals. Lastly WordWolf, if you honestly believe in the aforementioned statement, do you physically reside in New Knoxville, Ohio??? The reason I ask that question is because it would truly be a LIE to even insinuate here that Way believers are relative in number to, say, the Mormons or the Jehovah Witnesses in the United States – NOT EVEN CLOSE. I live in southern NH, and prior to '02, I lived in Mass. I've NEVER been approached by anybody asking me if I'd like to go to a "Twig fellowship", OR, take "The Class" . Looking at the official Way Ministry's website, there wasn't even an option to find the nearest Twig fellowship to me – its site really isn't conducive to welcoming more people to join – it's sort of like a church's answer to the Free Masons (or a membership only group). And as I mentioned on another GSC thread fairly recently, it's been AT LEAST 25 years since I've seen a green Way bumper sticker on any vehicle I've encountered. Back in the good old days, I would probably average about one Way bumper sticker per month. Now, they are literally nowhere to be found. So if you're that committed to these new Way believers, WordWolf dawg, why not go down to New Knoxville and live amongst them??? Why not set the example here, for everybody else to follow?

As a point of disclosure here, my personal relationship with the Way Ministry is probably not as involved and intimate as most of the “regulars” here on Grease Spot Café. I was never Way Corps. I was a military WOW, which isn’t quite the same as being a regular WOW. So perhaps if I were a little more involved, I’d be a little more bitter against some of the Way leadership, even to this day. And then when you view someone like John Walsh of America’s Most Wanted , there probably is a very fine line between people who are truly “passionate” about a certain cause, and those who might be “insane”. I often wondered if I had a close friend or relative who was either killed or maimed in 9/11 or last April’s Boston Marathon bombing, would I HATE and LOATHE the Muslim people right now – not just a handful of radical terrorists – but ALL Muslim people? Yeah, I probably would, maybe out of respect somehow for my friends and relatives. Although I know full well that in the end, all that pent up animosity and bitterness against Muslims ain’t really going to do me much good. Victor Paul Wierwille, Don Wierwille, and Howard Allen have all gone on – several decades now – to meet God Almighty for their very own Judgment Day. Assuming even a fraction of the stuff said about these “gentlemen” here on GSC is true, then their Judgment Day experiences will be the ONLY glimpses of Heaven these guys will ever have. There’s no doubt in my mind, whatsoever, that God will deal harshly and justly to any false teacher of His Word. God can and will initiate REVENGE against anybody who screwed over His people – Vengeance is Mine, thus saith the Lord. I don’t believe for a second these guys “escaped” anything by dying – if anything, it merely started their eternity in Hell. Enter L. Craig Martindale, who at last check was living in exile in that “sun and fun capital of the world”, Toledo Ohio. Wow, so I suppose that that’s just a wee bit more exciting than living in New Knoxville Ohio. And what might Martindale be doing these days for “laughs and giggles”??? I heard he was “doubling” his employment opportunities as both a UPS (United Parcel Service) driver, and then working as a fitness consultant at a nearby Bally’s gym. So if that’s true, here you’ve got a guy who, just about 20 years ago was running a multi-million dollar International church organization, and today he’s referred to as a “brownie” driver, and then afterwards, he shows fat, overweight people how to do crunches and squats. Somebody told me that Martindale is just a mere shell of what he used to be – gee, I never would’ve guessed. Perhaps the more appropriate quote would be from King David, on former King Saul and his son Jonathan – Oh, how the mighty have fallen. My question here is: If true, don’t you think Martindale has already gotten a little taste of what Hell might be like? Lastly, how does knowing the aforementioned information about Martindale positively enhance anybody’s Eternal Salvation here on Grease Spot Café? A young lady, who was a Corps grad and involved in Way Productions, told me that it was no accident that the Ministry tapped, “Don’t Stop Speaking God’s Word” by TAKIT, as its marquee song to end, at least a couple, Rock of Ages. Compare that to: “Rock And Roll All Nite”, by KISS, the beat of these songs, along with the catchy lyrics, prompts people to sing and dance along, even subconsciously. Since TAKIT member Skip Mesquite (who’s now passed on) performed with the popular Rock group, Tower of Power, he understood how to get people hooked on their music. My friend told me that if secular Rock music uses this type of psychology to influence people to the message of their songs, then why can’t Christian music artists do the same thing? And appropriately so, how could you not leave the Rock of Ages, with listening to: “Don’t Stop Speaking God’s Word” at the very end, and then automatically think to yourself: I’m going to set the Way Ministry record in this next year for running the most PFAL classes – WOOOOO HOOOOOO!!!!!

skyrider, out of all the "regulars" who have previously posted here on GreaseSpot Cafe, I whole-heartedly agree with YOUR comments 120%. If an individual, for example, were about to experience a Divorce (which I think is a zillion times more stressful than learning that your minister was engaging in a few "moral improprieties"), and you had trouble sleeping for a couple of weeks, a good friend would probably recommend that person seek some psychiatric counseling and hopefully get a prescription for Prozac or Vicitin to help them sleep at night until they could get over their stress. Assuming that person were to hold that same level of bitterness and animosity against an ex spouse for DECADES or QUARTER CENTURIES, most people would view them as "insane", or maybe even candidates to be "institutionalized". I just have one simple question for you, skyrider (and I promise NOT to elaborate any further and possibly start a riot on one of these GSC Threads again), what exactly is preventing YOU right now from either devoting yourself to another Christian entity (even if it believes in the "Trinity"), OR, starting a Christian fellowship of your own to hopefully lead others to eternal salvation? I'm sincerely curious on that. One thing, skyrider, I blatantly DISAGREE with you on is your view on TAKIT music. There's no way on God's green earth that you're going to convince Yours Truly that the song, "Don't Stop Speaking God's Word" has Devil-possessed lyrics. I may not be able to currently listen to it off a cassette, CD, or YouTube -- unfortunately, but I still have a pretty good rendition of it stored away in my own memory bank. The green Way bumper stickers, on the other hand, made most cars look "honky tonk" and it was probably a blessing in disguise that the Way Bookstore phased them off its merchandise list. Thank God for small miracles.

I will confess, after the proverbial BLEEP hit the fan following "Doctor's" passing, I did purchase a "Jesus Christ -- The Red Thread" long sleeve tee shirt from the Way Bookstore because, even if V.P. did plagiarize that and claimed it as his very own, it's still truly amazing just how Jesus is woven throughout every single book of the Bible. I would've LOVED to have bought either a CD or cassette from TAKIT with the song, "Don't Stop Speaking God's Word" on it because I DEFINITELY think that's one the top five Christian songs EVER, of all time. Unfortunately, The Way Bookstore doesn't sell TAKIT CDs or cassettes, and I can't even find that specific song on, YouTube. Oh well. One positive thing I noticed about the Way Bookstore on-line, it no longer sells, "Athletes of the Spirit" videos -- now that might be construed as a step in a positive direction. I don't know.

Hey JavaJane -- Specifically, which town in Ohio do you and your husband currently reside? Lima, Sidney, or New Knoxville? I happen to live outside Nashua NH -- deemed in a national Gallup survey for about three (3) years in row as being "The Least Religious Areas of the United States" (I can only assume that if the employment and economy is better than the rest of the country, this neck of the woods ain't that dependent on God -- just my theory). But with that being said, one would assume that organizations like The Way would send out WOW Ambassadors to a "spiritually fertile area" such as Nashua NH, wouldn't you? Since the proverbial BLEEP hit the fan in The Way soon after "Doctor's" passing in '85, I can honestly tell you that I've NEVER been witnessed by anybody inviting me to a "Twig fellowship" and/or encouraging me to take "The Class". Also, in that same span of time, I have NEVER seen a Way bumper sticker on any of the vehicles I've encountered in my daily travels. Furthermore, after surfing thru The Way's official website, I couldn't find anything in the Way Bookstore where it even still offered Way bumper stickers for sale (if The Way did totally terminate the production/sale of its traditional bumper stickers, that pretty pathetic), nor anything even remotely conducive to "outreach", i.e. who could I call or where could I go to check out a Way fellowship in the Nashua NH area??? Personally, I've been involved with an Assembly of God church for 11 yrs now in Nashua, and would contend that our church's website is a heck of a lot more "outreach friendly" than that of The Way's. The Way, just by its "official website", strikes me now as sort of a "closed membership" type of organization, like the Free Masons or something like that. It was a little bit surprising, JavaJane, to read about your personal experience about these current Way believers as some sort of, "outreach go-getters for Jesus" because I just don't see any concrete evidence of that as I did, say, back in the day.

Examining that link, HAPe4Me, that lady is DEFINITELY NOT the Susan Powell, who's being inquired about by the initial poster: http://harttweb.hart...gs/spowell.aspx The one and only time I met Ms. Powell was when she was visiting her parents in Abilene TX, and I was stationed at nearby Dyess AFB way back in the late 70s. I guess one of her parents, if not both parents, were college professors at either Hardin-Simmons or McMurry in that city. Although she came off as a "free spirit and fun-loving" (or a "hippie") type, Susan was very well grounded in both the Word of God, as well as her violin playing. While we spoke when she was visiting the Way Home, which I was residing in at that time, Ms. Powell mentioned her intentions of going into the Way Corps -- or maybe she was already in the Way Corps. Either way, I did sponsor her in the Corps, but over the years, unfortunately, I lost all correspondence with her. From '77 thru '85, I attended most of the annual Rock of Ages in that time span, and I never ran into Susan at the Rock. Whatever Susan is doing these days, I sure hope and pray she's out of the Way Ministry and doing well for herself. I can definitely see Susan being a fantastic wife and mother, not to mention a professionally-established violinist, somewhere in the world right now. Sorry if this wasn't any help on locating Ms. Powell's exact whereabouts.

I remember Doyle Deguire from Abilene TX in the late 70s. I was stationed @ Dyess AFB at the time, he would show up for Twig fellowship every once in a blue moon, talked a good talk, but seemed to be a "party animal" at heart. I left Abilene around November '78, and I seriously doubt at the rate Doyle was going that the guy ever turned his life around. I continued to attend Rock of Ages till around '85, I always asked about Doyle, but I never seen him there.

Does anyone know the whereabouts of Mark Moran, originally from Framingham MA, married to Alicia Curley and was spouse Corps? Had a sister Mary Ann Moran, also a student @ U Mass Amherst? Just curious if anyone knows where he is or what he's doing.

I know, I know, I said I wasn't going to post any more about this subject (which I don't intend to), OR on this string. But having gone through a divorce myself from eight years ago, which I'm still paying child support -- I still haven't forgiven my ex-wife for that whole experience. It definitely has taken its toll my personal life both physically and psychologically. I can only hope and pray that some of the folks who frequent Grease Spot Cafe don't mistake God and His Word for a couple of evil, arrogant whack jobs who once operated a supposed Biblical research and teaching ministry under His name. That's all.

Thank you so much WordWolf for sharing that with me and thus, putting this whole forum string in proper perspective. I just can't help but think if TWI had just, justifiably, followed in the footsteps of how the PTL Club handled Rev. Jim Bakker just about a year earlier -- LCM should've been stripped of his Way Presidency as soon as the Passing of the Patriarch was publicly revealed in '86. Ditto with Howard and Dean Don from their Trustee positions. It sounds as if the purpose of Chris G33r and Ralph Dub45sky disclosing that stuff was nothing more than spreading rumor and gossip because absolutely nothing changed with these guys' "indescretions". I can understand the pain and the bitterness felt, especially from that whole ordeal of about 22 years ago. What I find especially sad, at least in my own personal experience, are the former TWI believers who've completely washed their hands of God and His Word because they somehow equate the Almighty with VPW and LCM -- as if to say, if this is what God's like, I don't want to have absolutely nothing to do with Him. What a blatant lie from Satan! LCM, for last I heard, has relegated himself as a UPS driver as well as a customer service rep at a Bally fitness center in the Toledo -- a mere shell of the man he was about 25 years ago when things were "different". I'm sure VPW got his "just dessert" when he went face-to-face with God Almighty on his Judgement Day, which is also a day LCM probably isn't looking forward to either. The adultery, the fornication, etc. But why should that whole experience compel anyone of us to refrain from still worshipping God? Harboring bitterness and resentment is sort of like eating poison, assuming it's going to kill the person you "hate". Just the opposite, the inability to forgive someone or something of a wrongdoing is more devastating to you and your well-being than the person you're directing your hatred and anger towards. I've been attending a nearby Assembly of God church for the past 4-5 years now with my two kids and I really enjoy that. Next week, I'll probably go hear John Lynn speak in Mass., because I have no qualms whatsoever with John Lynn. I personally consider John Lynn a fairly close friend and nothing he'll say next week will sway me from my personal beliefs in God and His Word. Enough said. I won't add anymore postings to this particular string, nor will I say anymore here on Grease Spot Cafe about my Facebook forum. Agape, Zbrick

Gee, sorry if I ruffled any feathers here. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don't feel this Facebook group forum is "competing" with Grease Spot Cafe, or for that matter CES or the Way Ministry. I'm simply making it available for the principles and followers of all three of these entities to share stuff with others or just plain vent. Perhaps this idea is about 22 years too late as far as most PFAL grads go. Unfortunately, the Internet didn't really become popular until about nine years ago. Oh well, if this group forum fails, it fails. I just thought I'd do my part to try to ease the pain and bitterness a little bit.

Why doesn't everybody who's within eye-shot of this Internet posting register on Facebook.com -- what the heck, it's free? Then you'll be eligible for sure to log on and participate on my Way Believers group forum. If you can register as a member on Grease Spot Cafe, I'm sure it's no more difficult than registering on Facebook. Just a suggestion.