ex10

And one more thing, what the hay, I find it pretty telling that you accuse everyone else of idolizing VPW, when you're the one who said he will be remembered by history as "a man of great faith." Sheesh. -->

Good grief WTH You just don't seem to get it. Could it be your just projecting your own unresolved issues on everybody else? Seems you are incapable of simply listening to what someone says without interjecting your own brand of judgmental contempt. It must be lonely where you live. :(-->

mj I read the book a while back, and I don't recall that there is much about the holy spirit in it. But I'll check it out. You did remind me though, that CES produced a book, what about 10 years ago maybe, on the gift of holy spirit. I'll dig that one out, too. :)-->

WB I'll have to check it out. All I know about Benny Hinn is he has a real bad hair doo, and he's from Bethlehem, which I think is cool. :)-->

Yeah, Evan, seems like yielding to the holy spirit is inextricably linked to surrendering to the Lordship of Jesus in our lives.

Which brings up another question for me, Lightside. The Comforter that Jesus sent had to be different from the holy spirit that is spoken of in the Old Testament. Jesus says that it's necessary for him to leave so the Comforter can come. Yeah, I know it's different because we are born of the spirit. But is that the only difference?

Wow alot to digest here. It seems to me that lately I've begun to finally understand that it's the spirit that leads us, not us that leads the spirit, if that makes sense. And it also seems to me that the "power" of the holy spirit lies in our ability to be transformed from the inside out. Not so much in "operating the spirit" whatever the heck that means. I know at times we can see and do things only possible because we have holy spirit, but it seems to me that the major function of the gift is to assure us of the presence of God and Jesus the Son in our lives. And we become "sensitive" to the workings of that spirit, the better our relationship with the Son is. But I guess the point is, it's the will of God that is fulfilled, not our own plans and devices. Sorry if I'm rambling, just kinda thinking out loud. :)-->

I've been thinking alot lately about TWI's teaching about the holy spirit. Jesus had alot to say about the coming of the Comforter. From what I've read in the gospels, Jesus describes the holy spirit as the Comforter and the Counsellor, who will lead, guide, and convict. In TWI, we were taught that the holy spirit was a gift, that we operated at will. Somehow this teaching doesn't fit with the words of Jesus in the gospels. I'm putting this topic here instead of in the doctrinal forum because I'm not so interested in a chapter and verse dissection of the subject, just wondering what others think about it. Any thoughts anyone?

Oh good grief Just because someone isn't afraid to talk about the harm VP did, doesn't mean they are blinded by hate. Sheesh, it has to be all or nothing with some people, doesn't it?

WTH, It sounds to me like you are saying that because you disagree with others' conclusions they are not credible witnesses. I don't know what your experience of VPW was, or how "involved" you were with him, his organization, or his teachings. But I assure you, many of us were very involved, for many years of our lives. It seems to me that would be the basis of any "credibility issues." Not how anybody feels about it. I respect that you disagree with others' assessments of their time spent in TWI, but it seems kinda dishonest to say that they aren't credible because you disagree. The truth is that nobody really knows if VPW was repentant or not at the end of his life. But his actions didn't reflect the change that repentance requires. WTH, nobody is telling you how you have to feel about VPW. It's a complicated issue for many of us. We all have to sort it out for ourselves, and come to a conclusion we can live with. There is no law at Greasespot that says we all have to agree on anything much less everything concerning VPW. That would put us all right back where we came from, now wouldn't it? If you are looking for a balanced view, only you can decide for yourself what that might be, just as we all have to do the same. But it seems a shame to me, to so quickly dismiss the richness of this place and the shared experiences and comraderie. But again, it's your choice. I wish you the best in making sense of it all.

hey Pete! If you are my old friend, I've lost your email. Mine is: jolise126@yahoo.com If you're not my old friend, I apologize to all for the derail. :)--> Carry on.

And teknon, please don't feel too bad or beat yourself up about being "clueless." I think I can safely say that most of us here, if not all, were equally as clueless. But thank goodness we aren't anymore. The truth is that leaders of TWI over the years have purposefully tried to keep the dark side of the organization hidden. Lots of things were done in secret. Yeah, I've been through the "how could I be so blind?" stage, and I'm sure many others here have, I just don't beat myself up over it anymore. I wish you the best.

Well, Groucho, I'm glad you finally made your way back to this illustrious gathering spot in cyber space. It's good to be home again........Been away too long....

Yeah, me too. jolise126@yahoo.com

Oh and another thing WTH, What do you care what anybody else's conclusions about the life and times of VPW are? You're a thinking human, why not draw your own conclusions from the shared experiences and sentiments of the posters here? Maybe you're just like the rest of us, trying to make some sense out of our experiences with TWI. Maybe not. Maybe you have another agenda, I don't know. But if you are just trying to sort it all out, being offended at the offenses is just part of the normal process of working through it all. My advice is, don't get stuck there. It just makes me wonder, from your last post, what exactly you are looking for?

Wow! What the Hay I never thought of myself as being an "authority" of the life and work of VPW, until you wrote that. But then I thought, geeze, many of us (myself included) were in the way corps, knew PFAL and its progeny backwards and forwards, (I mean like writing the advanced class exam and the tests the apprentice corps and newby in-rez corps took on PFAL material) and knew VPW personally. Many of us spent time with him, being "taught" and "instructed" by him, as well as just "hanging out" with him. If we aren't the experts on his life and teachings, then who is?

Yeah, dmiller. My paper was on I Cor. 15:34. Love that verse. Funny how it seems so appropo now.

Hey dmiller I did a word study on eknepho as part of my research paper while in the way corps. Short study, since it's only used once. ;)-->

yeah, like it's a matter of national security or something.......hahaha geeeze, I'm just a mom, normal citizen, pedestrian type christian...like it matters to anyone? I'm still trying to figure that one out. I happened to have taken "the class." Does that mean I am excempt for normal society? Geeeze.

trefor you sweetie, you If I can convince my girlfriend from Wales to come along, I have a much better chance of being in your neck of the woods. You know how these things go though, I will be at the mercy of my hosts and hostesses. But I figure, if it's meant to be, then it will be. Ya know? We could pray....

haha sisex It does seem to take away from the spontaneity of it all. And make it seem like this whole thing is some kind of "game." Where somebody can get ahead, or something.....I didn't realize the forums were a "competition." Naive me.

Mike You are a good sport.

Mike I understand how you feel about PFAL, and hopefully I am respectful of that. But Please oh please, no ads here, ok? This thread is for the rest of us, who haven't quite gotten the superior spiritual plane that you live on.

Johniam You seem to have struck a raw nerve. ;)--> Liar, Um pardon me, but I don't see what anything you have said thus far has to do with PFAL? Not that I'm trying to distract you or anything. :D-->

OM Once again, you have brilliantly missed the point CW is making. It wasn't just "one person who went bad." Evil infilitrated the whole organization, because of the "one person who went bad," who also happened to be the "greatest example of a man of god in our day and time," etc. ad nauseum. It's not that hard to get Oldies. And it's not as black and white as you like to make it. sigh......