ex10

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yeah, lindy the "idiom of permission" has to do with free will. But like I said, blaming everything evil on the devil, seems, well, too much like a pat answer to me.

well yeah, i agree with Dot. The ordination doesn't really mean anything to anybody outside of TWI. -->

daggs, I don't have your email anymore. If you feel inspired, email me jolise126@yahoo.com. I've been wondering about a certain friend we have in common. --> I hope she is well.....

yeah WW. It's a total sin in TWI to ask and pray that the "will of the Lord be done." Being a know it all and "commanding" and "believing" seemed to be the cool thing to do. No wonder it's so hard to get prayers answered.... :)-->

johniam I see your point about evil. But somehow it seems just as disingenuous to blame all evil on "the devil" as it does to make God responsible for everything. Humans can be pretty depraved, all on their own. :)-->

I don't know Refiner, maybe a change of perspective would help. I don't see God as being the great manipulator of human history. I see him as a benevelant intervener, when people were bent on a path of certain destruction. I see him as a saviour of those who were faithful to him. I guess my ideas of free will, and what it means, has alot to do with it. I'm no theologian, and have no pat answers to anything. I just think the interaction and relationship between our maker and us humans has been rather complicated over time. :)-->

well, my experience was similiar to that of Sunesis. In the way corps, it was known that there were things that didn't "line up." But whenever such things were questioned or mentioned, there was always some kind of excuse, reason, explanation whatever, that led one to believe that "research" was continuing, and unclear verses, subjects, whatever, would be dealt with. Little did I know, that it was never gonna be "dealt with," and anybody who made too big a deal out of said "discrencies" got shut up, real quick like. Uncle Hairy is right. PFAL was etched in stone, for all eternity, by the MOG, and "research" only existed to validate the doctrine of the MOG.

PS The whole "gift ministry" teaching of TWI was, sheesh, like just about everything else they taught, errant. Just my humble opinion, but TWI was like a very large dysfunctional family, with bible verses thrown in to validate their dysfunction. And not only that, I don't think they had a clue about "ministries" and "functions" in the one body and how they work. Especially when it comes to accountability. That doesn't mean that there were not people who had genuine gifts and abilities, who used them to serve others. It just means that TWI painted a pretty twisted picture of service for the Lord Jesus Christ. Please forgive my preachiness. I'll get off my soapbox now. :D-->

Classic, Dot, that should go down in the GS hall of fame for one-liners.

YES. My point perxactly. :)-->

Dot Different denominations and churches have the autonomy to decide their qualifications for ordinations. Which is how it should be, IMO. It's the old seperation of church and state thing written into our constitution. Thank goodness. The licensing by the state is a whole different category. Some duties performed traditionally by clergymen are also regulated by the state, to protect the public. For example, in most states if you're going to be marrying people, performing couseling services, practicing medicine, etc. there is an overlap with the state, which regulates those kinds of services. But plenty of "ministerial duties" are not state licensed. If your nurse friend is a great bible teacher, and everybody in his church thinks so, and the minister wants to "ordain" him to teach in the church, well fine. But if he wanted to teach biology in a public school, he'd have to be licensed. And he probably has a license to practice nursing. The licensing procedure is basically to protect the public, and make sure that the people practicing are qualified to do what they are doing, and be let loose on unsuspecting pedestrians. Churches are still pretty free to do what they want within their own boundaries. The official ordination licensing thing will get you a free parking space that says "reserved for clergy," and entree into a prison or hospital. And you can marry people. I'm sure there are more privileges that what I've mentioned. If you want your "ministry" to extend beyond the boundaries of your own particular church, then licensing by the state is required. Otherwise, do your own thing, within your own boundaries. ;)--> Gotcha, dove. :)-->

Oh geeeze. White dove, I kindly beg to differ with your assessment of "ordination requirements" of churches. Most mainline denominations require some kind of academic degree for ordination. Not to mention, a proven track record of service, as well as "christian character." There are established, traditional "minimum requirements" for ordination. It's a weeding out process. TWI would have done well if they had such requirements. I find it difficult to believe that serial adulterers, and emotional/sexual abusers get as far in the established systems, as they did in TWI. Yeah, of course it happens, but not on the scale that we have seen in TWI.

Not to be picky, but you might want to reconsider that point. Jesus Christ is head of the church and responsible for the appointing of so called "gift ministries." But I guess if you are of the trinitarian persuasion, it's of no consequence. I know this isn't the doctrinal forum, but I'm in a mood. :P--> PS see Ephesians :)-->

Tom, Only one or two. :D-->

I've always thought it was somewhat dishonest of those who were fired/and or left TWI to continue to use their "Rev." title. TWI did "defrock" them. So what's up with continuing to refer to yourself, and let others do so, as Rev? --> In just about any other denomination that I know of, if you quit or are fired, you also leave the title behind. Ok, if you then join another church, and are working for them, and they choose to ordain you, fine.

Refiner, I did. The problems with VPW were not so much with the Greek words, (he wasn't much of a Greek or Hebrew student) but with his pick and choose method of stringing verses together, with lots of "private interpretation" wedged in between. And of course there were discrepencies. The most salient example that comes to my mind is the "Athletes of the Spirit" teaching. But when confronted with that blatent, um, liberty taken with the Greek, he all but admitted that he had taken great liberties. But felt that he could, because he was, after all, "the teacher." What's so ironic about the whole thing is that VPW led his students to believe that translating from Greek/Hebrew to English was an exact science. After all, it had to "fit like a hand in a glove."

fellowshipper's beloved That was very beautifully put. :)-->

Well there are places in the gospels, where angels "ministered to" Jesus. :)-->

Another point is that Jesus' example of his relationship and treatment of women is a big clue. Jesus NEVER treated women as second class citizens, and in fact, was criticized for just the opposite. Treating them as equals, so to speak. Everything written in the NT has to line up with Jesus' example. At the risk of stating the obvious, TWI's teaching on the role of, and treatment of women doesn't.

Bob, it's true that the primary definition is militaristic in nature. Which is why it doesn't fit in the context of marriage. ;)--> My Greek is really rusty, but from what I remember there are nuances in the definition of the word, according to tense, voice and context. John Lynn and John Schoeheit did great teaching on the whole subject when we first left TWI in the 80's to correct the whole misued doctrine. I'm sure the teachings are available on their website. J. Shoenheit's Greek is tons better than mine. I do know that the submission, or rather consideration and respect, required in a marriage relationship is reciprical, and gender specific. (Duh, men can't bear children, etc., women don't go off to hunt and do battle with small children) But that's the boundary. It does not extend beyond that particular relationship. God is neither male nor female, but exhibits both gender characteristics. The union of male and female in marriage is to show the complete character of God. Each gender completes the total picture of who God is. When it comes to relationships outside of marriage, in the church for example, submission is still part of the deal. And obviously, it's not referring to rank, or any kind of militaristic authority over anybody. I understand it as being respect and loving subjection ala considering others before yourself. (What Jesus taught.) Hope this helps?

The point of "submission" of women to their husbands in the bible, doesn't have anything to do with rank, position, or authority. It simply means to honor each other in the marriage relationship and respond to one another's needs. Look it up if you don't believe me. Also, women are to honor ("submit") to "their own husbands." Not to every man who comes along thinking he's an important somebody. There are many different references to "submission" mentioned in the bible concerning our relationships with one another. TWI had it all screwed up, as usual. --> Zshot, yeah, what you said. :D--> PS and another thing, "ministries" or "gifts" or "functions" in the body of Christ are NOT gender specific. So that does NOT mean that women are regulated to babysitting and baking cookies in the church, regardless of what some fundamentalists, TWI included, teach. :D--> Thank goodness I'm a Methodist now.

Hey Jen!! Nice to "see" you. I was just thinking about you, and looking around for your email. Check your private topics. Many apologies for the side track. ;)-->

Hey Daggs!! Great to see you again. Hope all is well with you and yours.

Geeeze Goey, there is no "secrecy." Anthony has his name on the website and the letter that was sent explaining what his "mission" is. He's not part of any "offshoot," and is not trying to "recreate the good ole days of TWI." It just him and his vision of making a difference in the world. What I don't get is the automatic suspicion of anybody who happens to be an excorps person. And by the way, he was never any big-wig leader with the way. Just another corps person trying to do his best for Jesus Christ. If you contact him, he is very excited and up front about what he's doing. And yes it is "secular" education. From what I understand, it was the Belize people who asked for a church to be built on the school property, and it is to be an interdenominational effort. Heck, we get tons of letters asking for donations to groups and churches we have never heard of. It's not like it's a crime or anything to let people know what you're doing, and what the need is. Sheesh. There is a box to check on the reply form sent with the letter saying "do not contact me again" or something to that effect. If you want more info, he's easy to get ahold of, and quite willing to talk, or email, whatever.