ex10

Mark, Don't worry, I didn't take your comments 'the wrong way." But I must say, you have no idea what my standards are. :D-->

I think it's pretty interesting that those closest to VP, and other "leadership" left pretty early on. Almost all of the "top Leaders" left in the mid-80's, as well as the "middle management." Seems like most of the people who stayed (I'm generalizing here, so please forgive) were the ones in twigs who had nada clue. I know there were exceptions. But honestly, for the life of me, I can't figure how they (leader types) put up with all the bs. For me personally, it really didn't have much to do with "doctrine" but the despicably shameful way people were treated. Who cares if you're right or not, when you act like a total A__?

what about the glaring blunder concerning the VHS vs. BETA dilemna? or the corps going "full time" debacle? oops, you mentioned that. :)--> the "way college program," never got off the ground, either. Camp Gunnison being a "believer's vacation paradise." Oops. LEAD being a rival of Philmont........say what? And of course, the grand poobah of misses....da da da, drum roll please..... Word Over the World in our lifetime! (whatever the heck that meant.)

Well, my opinion, all theology aside, is yeah, they should "fry." I don't say this from a self-righteous point of view, just from a justice frame of mind. Yeah, I might be a sinner, and do alot of really stupid stuff, but I don't think I've wrecked thousands of lives. Christian ones at that. A minister, as they both were, who fleeces the flock, is held to a higher standard. I don't think Jesus is very happy with either of them. :D--> And besides which, I don't think deathbed repentance makes everything hunky dory. It just means you've totally wasted your life, and realized it in time to be sorry. So......big deal. It doesn't mean you're gonna be sipping pina coladas at club med forever.

Cindy I like Dr. Phil as well. Since I work full-time, I don't get to see his show very often, but I like what I've seen. He's not afraid to take on any challenge, and he genuinely offers solutions. Like you said, he doesn't seem to be into exploiting people like so many before him have done. He actually does something to HELP. I wouldn't be surprised if he is a graduate of Momentous, as he is a proponenet of experiential therapy. No big deal. :D-->

Well, speaking from a totally "right-brained" point of view, I think the world would be way too boring a place to live, if we didn't make these genorous attempts at justifying the other side. :D-->

OK, I'm going to say what I think, and it's probably gonna get me in trouble, but I'm feeling a little reckless this evening. ;)--> VPW was an out of control alcoholic, serial sex abuser, who was the master at surrounding himself with co-dependents. What he was aware of, of what he wasn't, is a moot point. He was into hiding his sin, (sins) What "leadership" did or didn't do, teach, promulgate whatever, depended on how codependent they were. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)-->

Ya gotta love the honesty in that experience, bramble. I admire her candor.

hey ya Kathy! It's just a rumour that Sarah is a lesbian. She's married to her drummer, and when they got married, she admitted that her "lesbian" image was just a fable. :)-->

Warmest b.day wishes to my (almost) Irish twin! Here's raising a nice glass of Guiness to you. :)-->

Ohmygosh!!!!! socks, Thanks for the (ahem) much needed belly-laff. :)-->

Yeah, shaz. We've had two unexpected deaths in our family in the past two months. Sorta has a way of keeping things in perspective when that happens. ;)-->

PS Like as if........what really matters in the end of it all.....do you think these petty squabbles will mean anything? I just lost someone, and in the bigger scheme of things, all this sqabbling doesn't really matter in the least. I think what matters is how we loved. so shoot me, for being idealistic and naive. :)-->

well socks, not confused at all.......I think I totally get it, well maybe not totally, but striving towards totally..... :)-->

Geeeze, I haven't read the totallity of this thread or anything, been busy. But geeeze loueeeeze, seems like Geek and Cat hit a nerve. At least they were brave enough to ask the question.....gotta give them kudos for that. Anybody who has the patience and kindness to sort through all this stuff, has my admiration for life. Love, ex10

Hey Evan, I would like to talk to you about Africa and such things, mission trips and the like. Could you please email me at: jolise126@yahoo.com Need some advice. Love, ex10

Good grief. Oldies, you have already freely admitted that your experience in the cult was a good one. Since the context of this thread seems to be forgiving the cult abusers, I question your input here. What the heck do you know? And, for the record, to me, forgiveness of someone who has personally SINNNED against me, is a gift I freely offer. It's not dependent on their state of mind, repentance, guilt, whatever. Actually, I don't think it has as much to do with them, as it does with me. That being said, spouting platitudes and generalities adds nothing to the dialogue.

Wow, what a hot topic... Overall, I think Satori's post summed it up for me. Forgiveness, to me, is not the same as absolution. I think that forgiveness is a gift that I offer to someone, whether they deserve it, ask for it, repent, whatever, or not. My power to forgive is most certainly NOT dependent on anyone else, but maybe Jesus Christ. :)--> But it also doesn't mean that I ever trust them again, if they are living and unrepentant. Even though I've forgiven someone for their abusive actions towards me, doesn't mean I have to let them babysit my kids, or still run a cult. :D-->

Well the weatherman says it's finally gonna cool off to 70 this week-end, so pack a sweater for Flat Stanley. ;)-->

Well, dang, I've been waiting on Flat Stanley to arrive here for forever! Maybe it will really be Fall by the time he gets here. Otherwise, he's gonna be lounging by the pool, still. Still sweating in Texas, ex10

My dear friend, The best is yet to come! Happy, happy day and I hope and pray that it's the most memorable ever. Hugs

I confess to not having read this whole thread. The only thing I have to add, is that VPW's extra marital affairs, at least one of them, did make the local papers in the 50's. I don't have the time or inclination to search the Ohio newspaper archives to find the article/articles, but VPW's seperation from his denomination could possibly have much more to do with his "unfitness' as a minister, due to his extra-marital affairs, than anybody associated with TWI or his family wants to admit. Of course, Mrs. W would not address that in her book. For obvious reasons.....sadly. :(-->

Geeze Thanks rascal for getting the point. George, you are comparing apples to oranges, when bringing up the book of Job. That has nothing to do with so-called ministers of the church, abusing their flock. Duh.

Amen sistah ex As if God Almighty has to tolerate evil and abuse for good to come about. What a freakin lie.

socks I love Hillsongs, too. And check out Chris Tomlin, our old worship/youth pastor is now a musician with a real record deal. :)--> Always like that. But I think Jesus got marked and avoided by TWI a long time ago, so the fabulous worship music that's out there will pass them by, unfortunately...... :(-->