now I see

Great question Noni, Both my parents past away last year, and this Christmas I especially miss them. Some of the greatest times I had with my mom was when we'd make Christmas cookies together, before Christmas. It was a tradition I carried on even when I was single and still carry on that tradition today, whether I make cookies just for the family or to give out at work or as gifts. I now am the proud owner of all of her bakeware, which is something that I hold near and dear to my heart, it has tremendous sentimental value for me. We also make a point to cook a special big breakfast on Christmas morning with fancy sweet breads, and sweet rolls, omelettes or baked egg creations with all the trimmings. Decorating the tree, going to a tree farm to pick out a special tree, hanging outside lights, making special ornaments and wreathes are also some great traditions. Make your own traditions, every family is different, I used to know someone who was German who made homemade noodles every year for xmas, traditions are individual, just have fun with it.

Is this the bottom line of the lawsuit, the future marketability of MG? I dunno? Are we talking about EL as the woman who did the dirty work and about her going public with that letter not being a smart move? Do you think it was blown out of proportion or the catalyst that made all those fragile ces relationships fail?

There's something that ain't right with MG to take the power struggle going on at CES to the courts, in my opinion. Why not just walk away and do something productive with your life? I think they're all screwed up, IMO...

Sounds like a mirror image of how TWI reacted to POP, concealing the problem, and trying to lockdown any communication among the people about it. Very Vp-ish in flying by the seat of the pants, very autocratic, and also in soliciting feedback, but not really intending to do anything about it. A mirror image of administration a la TWI, has nothing to do with God and Christ, or His people, has a lot to do with administering a corporation.

I was under the impression that JAL and JS were being sued too or maybe the entity of CES?

Tzaia, They all sound obtusely arrogant and pridefull, with possibly the exception of Dan G, and all enamored with their own self righteousness. It surprises me it is so 'in your face'. I guess I've forgotten how bad the arrogance of of TWI was. How is it that there's such silence and a lack of current CES participants posting here, do you stay in touch with anyone in Ces? Are they all ignorant to what's going on or are they circling the wagons and not commenting to others about their leadership and practices? I don't get it.

I've always wondered where do the CES people go to air greevences or to complain? Is there a Ces or ex-ces web forum somewhere?

DWBH, Thank you for your longsuffering reportage of just the facts, I'm sure it took a lot of restraint to post these last Q & A posts without personal commentary. It's all so sad really. So that is how they started with the existing BOD and the prophetic council. And they have done little to improve upon the mess they created, they're waiting for the pending annual BOD meeting in January and the impending court cases.... And for what? For a little bit of money and a shortsighted retread ministry... There's more to life than a little money, you know... Don't they know that?.... And here they are, and it's a beautiful day....Well, I just don't understand it.

The above quote indicates John L was forewarned long ago of going ahead with momentus and the liason with the graes*rs, it cost him his first BOD. And just look at the mess that he's in now, and how many that have been hurt,including own wife Elizabeth.

I thought these past posts here on the CES forum help illustrate the insidious dark side of personal prophecy practices and of the CES organization: One poster said concerning CES and the personal prophecy doctrines: From an ex CES follower: Doesn’t sound too equitable to me, sounds like old twi tactics. Nice practices John. It is truly mind blowing to learn from the horse’s mouth that their ministry started the prophetic council as a knee jerk reaction to fear. Guess it’s that same fear that some have craftily employed to lord over others, while using it and our country’s justice system to shut the mouths of those involved, in my opinion….

I sort of get the impression with the Ces/stfi "leaders" that at some point way on down the road, they finally realize that what they're promoting is harming their people, and it's like, oops, we had no idea?? Sounds like by the time they realize this, the damage is done, such as with the personal prophecy, prophetic council, and the momentus. Either they're not listening to people until it gains critical mass, not pasturing the flock, or not the kind of people that should have the oversight of others. What kind of irresponsibility is this where they allow so many to fall prey to these stray winds. They also seem like they're intentionally dismissing those who had the negative feedback over the momentus and personal prophecy, because they're still privately endorsing momentus to individuals and endorsing personal prophecy wholesale. Makes you wonder about them as people. I also wonder why the are meddling so much in people's personal lives. One of the great reliefs for me when I broke away from Twi and offshoots was not having so many acquaintenances examining my life and judging me.

LOL T-bone!!!! My sentiments exactly!!!

I think...I feel...sick... loved the football exercise move by the Big Fathead. Funny Vid, appropriate parody, oh the horror of it all....

Ha ha ha ha ha!!! The one and only time I saw the AOS production, it was at the Rock, my friend had gotten me a seat on the fly in the reserved "Weirwille Section", 2 rows which had no one else in them by the way, it was a packed house otherwise. After it was over, I remember walking out of the auditorium in a uneasy daze, deeply embarrassed for our new prez, the Big Fathead. By the time I got to tent city, I expressed my bad feelings to a wc friend who promptly corrected me on my unsupportive feelings. I never wanted to see that production again, and felt sorry for everyone involved. Knowing now what went on behind the scenes there, it makes me want to gak. There’s no cache in being associated with that thing.

"...we love that sort of thing". Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

I've read it here before, but the word "mean" doesn't come up when I try to use the search engine here. I do know that there was at least one wife beater who was in the Vp inner circle. This person patterned his life after Vp.

Looks like their mailing address is in Indiana.... Better watch out, they're in the midst of squirrel hunting season! http://bayoubill.com/squirrels/squirrelbehavior.html

I'm just waiting for the screeching of brakes and the metalic boom of impact.....I really, really, hope they are not calling themselves "Apostles" (do I hear a choir of angels in the background singing??) because they believe they've discovered new light regarding prophecy and Prophets? I know they've exhibited the ego to do this, I just hope they haven't sunk that low to self glorify eachother that way... I also find it interesting that neither John L or John S are stating that there's anything further they need to change about their prophecy doctrine, whereas Dan is expressing his frustration in not being able to completely examine the problems. Hmmm.

30,000 grains equal a pound.

Pawtucket, Good guy gift, I'd give em the finger.

"I would never want to belong to any club that would have someone like me for a member."...Groucho Marx I agree...I'm ex-corps, I haven't and won't enroll either. Solidarity!

Or was it the great and powerful Oz? I dunno, there's so much in the bible concerning prophets and those who prophecy falsely in God's name, and what happens to those who call themselves prophets and to those whom listen to them. I wouldn't want to be counted among them. I find it ironic that John L warns us about the bema, when he's playing with fire spiritually. In light of our borrowed heritage where the bible that was taught was plagerized from another source (BG Leonard) and the great evangelism in the begining came from Doop and Heefner who were run out on a rail, it is sort of self glorifying to be boasting of individual gift ministries.

The reality is he is scolding DWBH and all of the rest of us extwi non-ces persons that we're operating outside of "what the Word says the Body is supossed to function." The real truth is, he has no clue what that is supossed to be. What he thinks he knows is how it should be done, but the dynamic organic body of Christ, with Christ-not a man-as the head, which God set up, and where each joint supplieth, is far from what he advocates. Here's an excerpt on this exact point from a previous poster from the CES Crisis forum: "Interesting to see that at least something might be done in CES. I'm glad for that.. It's a man made ministry, so I really could care less whether the "ministry" stands or falls. Because God is still God. Jesus is still our Lord. And we still have life! And the true church will still stand. The word ministry in the Bible is the word for serving. Not a "Bible club" which to me is all TWI and CES and the majority of churches / ministries have become. Just because they know Jesus, even personally, doesn't mean they follow Him. And if they follow Him, they won't be following man or a man made ministry. The body of Christ is to be made up of active members following Christ (serving). And it ain't for serving Koolaid!.... When will people wake up. The harvest is great. It's time to be working. Not making our own man-made groups with men at the helm leading it (having influence over others) and trying to see how he can keep leading it. Let him who wishes to be greatest among you be your SERVANT. Jesus never taught that it's for us to be serving the leaders. It's the other way around! You want to lead, then get out there and work. That's how you lead. Whether or not people follow and drink your koolaid. And even if they are influenced by your work, your not their leader, Christ is. So if any man is trying to "lead" people, they aren't following Christ, they are following their man made visions. Love, give, share, help, bless, care for, admonish, lift up, encourage, and teach all for the purpose of pointing them in the right direction to follow Christ, NOT YOU! If God wanted people made in your image, he would have done it. And that's all man made leaders do, is try and influence people to their image of what you should be. Christ is our head. Not man! Matthew 23:1-12 "Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." One is your teacher.. ANd it ain't Mark, John, Rosalie, LCM, your pastor, or anyone else. They may be great in influencing you, but the point is to get busy in following Christ, not the man who influenced you, who should have influenced you to follow Christ, not himself." Nuff said.

“we have not taken lightly our responsibility to steward it… your present "wild card" status isn't serving you…. I don't know what you are accomplishing on Gspot,… you have little understanding of what STF is all about. The Word clearly says that each of us is to be closely involved with others of like mind and heart, for the sake of the Lord and the Gospel….. I'd like to hear why you think the best use of your time is posting on Gspot". OUCH!!!!!!! Gee, I didn’t know us at Greasespot were so undeserving; he obviously doesn’t appreciate this kind of attention. Good thing JL is here to set Don’tWorry straight and it’s good when the bible is used as a club, I mean tool, to condemn, I mean, correct him. What’s a little self righteous condemnation between friends? "During the past 20 years, I have heard countless excuses from ex-Way folks as to why they want no part of another "organization," etc. I can understand their pain, but if I am to take the Word seriously, none hold water, biblically speaking, nor will they at the Bema. You know what the Word says about how the Body is to function” Wow, double OUCH!!!! Guess he’s taking the place of God and telling us what specifically happens to us at the bema…more condemnation to all GSpotters cause we’re not functioning with the Body. John, now you’re scarin me, maannn! Guess the ones that died at the hands of Twi whose bones are in the graves needent tell their stories anymore, neither should those who have suffered irrevocable wounds at the hands of their twi "ministers" needent voice their concerns since JL "understands their pain", exactly how, I don't know, I guess we'll have to take his word for it. He has essentially given the abusers a "pardon", but it's far more important that we get those bema rewards and adhere to his tenants of how the body should function...right...afterall , GS'ers are just whiners anyway...aha... “ In PFAL, we were in the right place at the right time...we long ago realized the privilege that was ours to hear the Word as it hasn't been taught since the first century” Aside from the ego driven retread cult think, at what cost did we hear this? Some of us paid a much higher price than others (JL) for this privilege. Those that paid a price I guess were under this category as well as any ces’ers who’ve fallen under the wheels: “he (JS) did provide a caveat regarding those who are "nasty" or, "obviously just want to argue", saying that he really does not have the time to engage in dialogue with folks who are determined not to really seek resolution or to restore a "right relationship" with CES/STFI/STF.” …Sounds strangely familiar. “On the practical side, DWBH, I sure hope you know me well enough to know that I would not be a part of anything that was in any way abusive, dishonest, clandestine, or in any way ungodly, and I think you may know JS well enough also.” Uh…how about when your own family (EL) was viciously torn apart by one high ranking woman in your organization and then YOU and the rest of your leaders followed suit? And you condoned this practice among your whole ministry, you swallowed your own Kool-Aide, liked it, and gave it to others….It took a Gspotter (MS) to open your eyes to the truth. How sharp is that? You are now magically transformed from this mental, emotional and spiritual dullness? Looks like being involved in an organization hasn’t done you any favors either... “but I can say that I know no one has more right doctrine to offer than we do." Wow, more insular smugness, hmmmm. “there was nowhere else on earth that you, I, et al, could have heard the Word… The enemy saw the theretofore unparalleled conjunction of biblical truth (TWI was by far the most significant unitarian, dispensational movement we know of since the 1st century church) [you mean BG Leonard’s class, dontcha? guess there was somewhere else on earth you coulda gone, maybe God woulda made it happen]) and young, capable, energetic, and committed men and women like you and me, and he used every means to destroy TWI and its people." Grphs, uhg, I just vomited in my mouth, excuse me…of course it was the debil dat done dis, it certainly couldn’t have been the people or leaders that were in it, not that old money grubbing, money for nothin and the chics for free cornfield sheister pervert, not the self serving false prophet leadership, not the hierarchal ladder climbing leaders setting themselves above the people ahead of Christ. No…no personal responsibility on that one, eh? It’s either God or your great smarts that lead you to TWI, therefore you’re validating Vp’s ministry or your ego driven self, or sadly, you really have no clue what the truth is. Guess you never dealt with that one since you started so quickly with your own rebound ministry, no time to deal with the small stuff and have some personal introspection, huh?I guess there's still precious little time, at least EL got some...ah well. “.The Word clearly says that each of us is to be closely involved with others of like mind and heart, for the sake of the Lord and the Gospel.…. getting up close and personal with us and seeing if what I say is true. At least then you could be a firsthand witness, one way or the other….I don't know if you have read/heard any of what we teach, but why not check it out? Why not call John and/or Dan and get to know their hearts?... but I can say that I know no one has more right doctrine to offer than we do….thousands of people around the world--and that number is growing exponentially." Hey, keep proselytizing, it’s all about the numbers, numbers equal validation, keep closing, keep trial closing till the end, prospects may say no today, and yes tomorrow!!! Sorry, DontWorry, I couldn’t hold back any longer, I wanted to wait till the end…but? I am still waiting to post the bulk of what I think and my personal comments after DontWorry has finished, but these quotes begged for timely commentary now rather than later.

Danny! Happy Birthday!!! Have a big beer on the Greasespot and have a great day!!! Cheers!