now I see

JohnJ, as always your comments are very insightful. VP was also very formulaic about everything from how the bible fit together, to how to speak in tongues, the the law of believing, to his predatory sexual attacks. Many TWI teachers, clear down to the fellowship level, patterned their own teaching style after this method; read a verse, say three to six lines about it. There was always an air of pride that TWI was different than the denominations, no long drawn out social sermons, heavy on the verses, light on the commentary was the projected defense of this method. Unfortunately I think we were all shortchanged when it came to old VP changing the meanings of passages and scriptures to his version of what he thought they should mean.

This one cracks me up! Click here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXXm696UbKY

What about Nephilim? If genetic remodling between genos happened back then, why wouldn't it be available now? Nephilim is an interesting subject, there are many threads here regarding it, lots on the net too. Whether it should be part of the cannon of scripture, make up your own mind, but if it is true, it confirms the previous existence of genetic reordering across genos. In direct contradiction of what old vp asserted, by the way! Here's a link to one of the older threads about it: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...amp;hl=nephilim

I find it extreemly comical that on one of those clips above they show the ousted evangelical mega church Pastor Ted Haggard who was unceremoniously bounced by his congregation when his homesexual behaivor with male prostitutes went public two years ago. It's also humorous that they spoke of political indoctrination of kids toward being christian warriors for the republican party, when in reality the Christian Right is mocked by the Bush administration behind closed doors. The guy Bush set up as the Faith Initiative Dept head even wrote a book about it after he observed this behavior for two years from the White House, all the while his department was slowly being underfunded, dismantled and dissolved by them. In reality the religious right were used to get votes, and nothing else. Priceless...

Socal1, if you understand it was a different time and era, why do you still defend the "rightness" of the program? It doesn't matter what you conceptualized it to be, or what was publically promoted, it doesn't matter that you had good experiences or were able to "win" in situations or circumstances. What matters is that the organization and the programs were corrupt from the inside out and from the top down. In reality, they weren't a vehicle to "know" God, they in fact led to a worship of man away from God and Jesus Christ, away from a true walk individually with the Father to some sort of cookie cutter formulaic systamatizing of error as an imitation of life with the Father. Some people's lives were irrevocably changed, snuffed out, gone, dead, ended abruptly due to the WC program, perhaps if that had happened to someone close to you or in your family, perhaps you might better understand what others are saying here, have you ever tried putting yourself in other's shoes? Often, the argument of others not being suited for staff work or as part of the WC or not being able to "cut it" is largely a misconception usually combined with a certain air of smugness. Granted, it puts the injured party into a tidy little box of being politely, unsuited or weak, not spiritual, messed up, it being their fault, possibly "possessed" but as we've seen here, many of these people were indeed competent spiritual people, they just didn't fit the mold of the outgoing charismatic JAL type leader that was so often projected as the tupos of what a christian leader should be. Often, we have found out later that many were cast out and disparaged due to their non adherence to keep issues in the "lockbox" after being victimized by those in TWI. After POP in '86 it was all covered up again, people continued to be really hurt. TWi top leadership en mass started committing a jihad against its own belivers, starting with those associated with the WC, and then filtering down to the individual believer. Not a pretty picture, nothing worth defending...

Again I say, OBLIVIOUS, and not particularily interested or concerned with the welfare of others.

.Wow, socal1, nice try at the Jedi Mind Trick....but sorry, it doesn't work here. Your intentions here at Greasespot are clear to see. Disparaging the posters and readers here doesn't fly with us either... .Neither does TWI hierarchy title dropping, who cares if a limb leader slightly injured someone, it pales in comparrison to someone dying, get raped, losing a toe to frostbite, it doesn't help your arguments against this thread and all of us posters. Your attempts to control what is said here and attempts to suppress the information and discussion on this thread also comes in loud and clear...hmm, sounds vaguely familiar... .If there was no act to suppress it then, when it was fresh, why are you trying to suppress it now? It clearly shows you have an axe to grind here, but why? You are pretty much stating here TWI was not blame, nor was the BOT by your defense of them, that they took the appropriate measures, that the lives of these victims who died, the rapes while hitching etc. were just collateral damage, chalk it up to "accidents" such as a little staple in the hand. Hmm? If they hadn't cleaned up their act, they would have left themselves wide open to infinite litigation damage from any subsequent accident victim who could have won gigantically huge amounts from lawsuits against TWI on the basis of negligence since it was very clear from the LEAD accident TWI was grossly negligent on many things. That could have cut into the huge cash draws, the toys, and lavish vacations doc vic, howard and the BOT indulged in. .Right, it's our own fault, it was Rochelle's fault, the girls who got rapedon the way to NM, it was their fault, the guy who was hit by the semi it was his fault, maybe his lack of believing, right? Wasn't that the test, the hitch hiking? Sure, blame the victim....Oh, but we're not supposed to talk about all of them now in honor of the victims and their families..right? Sounds vaguely familiar too...where did I hear that before...hmm...I'll have to think about that onefor a while....hmmm... Speakey Dee Englace??? There were no aspersions slung by Sunesis, read it again without the paranoiac glasses on, she said he was devastated, and get a clue, most all of us here were company men too at that time, that's what is called a fact, not a slight. We trusted TWi, we believed in twi. How very smug of you to say that about her. Most of us here appreciate Sunesis for her insight and her perspective of her unique experiences with our TWI cult. You invoking Rochelle's brother and family I find extreemly distasteful, a very low card to play, and utterly corrupt, seeing as he hasn't even stood with TWI since 1988, believe me, he is acquainted with the dark side of TWI. But you don't have a clue about how he feels or what he wants in regard to his sister nor TWI, yet you act as his spokesman. Nor were you a friend to Rochelle as Sunesis was. .I like how you contradict yourself again here too, on the one hand you advocate not blaming anyone but the victim for their suicide, but then you project a critcal inquiry toward the friends and blaming them at the end. Nice try....still trying to blame the victim (and the friends) while deflecting culpability from TWI, huh? Boy, you really drank the Kool-Aid and "mastered" it. Your argumentative tones sound so much like the Emporia JAL administration trainings. So why try to suppress it now? Care to explain why there was never an official rebuttal? You said, "it is not an issue to them, now. Most of the complaints regard actions of specific indivduals who doubtfully concern themselves with this site." Sadly, this is true, TWI was, and always has been a cold, calculating, corporation, they have a job to do with a specific mission, where fleshy things of the heart and caring for people are not it's sweet spot.

There's the paradox of TWI, some had it real good, some had it real bad. The ones that had it real good, or were somehow above the frey, usually can't understand what the big deal is. Unless the dark side strikes close to home, I do believe some will never understand. Many were oblivious to the suffering of others, or chalked it up as a character (or spiritual) fault of the victims. Protecting the weak was never a TWi strongsuit.

"I think he wanted to think he was the man he wasn't.." That's about the funniest thing I've ever read here!!!!! I think old vic excelled at studying how to market a product, both before and after finding BG Leon*rd.

I watched part of CNN's Larry King show tonight on the FLDS/Texas raid, he had on woman named Valerie, who had been raised in a "mainstreamed" polygamist family who lived apart of any colony on the outside with regular people, went to regular public school, and chose for herself to continue in polygamy and asserted she was very happy in her lifestyle. She is also raising her kids the same way, wants them to go to college etc, and decide for themselves what their family makeup will be when they grow up. Larry King also had an Arizona reporter who has been covering the Utah/Arizona and now Texas FLDS sect for at least a decade commet on this lady's lifestyle and the current Texas cases. Mike Watkiss (reporter) answering Larry's question, Mike, what do you think of Valerie, obviously intelligent and open.: "WATKISS: I'm sure she is and I'm sure everything she's saying is true. It's wonderful. I'm happy she's happy and I'm sure it's a happy, healthy family. I think it has nothing to do with what's happening here in Texas. Hers is an interesting lifestyle story that we're all sort of interested (in); how do these women share a husband?. She has said multiple times she had choices. She had contact with the outside world. And having covered this as long as I have...the women and children in this community (FLDS Texas) do not have the same benefits that Valerie has enjoyed. (There's) A lot of defense leagues stepping forward to defend polygamy. I know every cop and every prosecutor who is now stepping forward and doing something about this, and to a person, none of them care about polygamy when it's consenting adults, men and women, women who have had education and choices, like Valerie clearly has had, to make these choices. The little 16-year-old girl here in Texas who triggered this entire thing didn't have any of that. And Ruth Stubbs, Pennie's little sister, didn't have any of that. So I think -- it's an interesting story. It has nothing to do...It has no bearing on what's going on in Arizona and Utah and certainly nothing that's going on in Texas." You can get a transcript of the whole show from Cnn, but what he's saying is none of the officials nor he cares about ANYONE choosing to live a polygamist lifestyle and all that goes with it, it's a lifestyle choice. The problem happens when a minor doesn't have the choice, and is abused. I tend to agree with that.

When I watched the news report on it last night, I couldn't help but think, what were they thinking? How could the colony feel they were safe in Texas considering what happened to the Koresh followers in Waco? The wisdom behind the decision to move from the Utah/Arizona border town of Colorado City to Texas where they have the death penalty, the Waco incident, where everyone owns a gun, and where the Texas Rangers are legendary, eludes me. Texas is no pushover state, what were they thinking? The other thing I noticed is that the people who were taking care of the women and children had no idea of whom they were dealing with. This polygimist group is such a closed society of backwoods type rural people, that to be thrust into a camp being managed by outsiders has got to be a very scary foreign experience for them. I hope they get some people with experience with this particlular group to help take care of them. These are family units being disrupted, not our idea of what a family is, but a family still the same, family dynamics are sometimes a complex thing, outsiders trying to to make them fit into a particular box against their will might be damaging as well.

The original mayonaise cake was printed on the back of the Miracle Whip jar, durring WWII staples like eggs and sugar were hard to get ahold of by regular people due to rationing, whereas the mayonaise manufacturers had these ingredients, essentially eggs, oil and sugar were substituted by the mayo in this recipe. Chocolate Mayonnaise Cake This cake is rich and moist, you can substitute Miracle Whip salad dressing for the mayo, just cut back on the amount of sugar to 3/4 cup. 1 cup boiling water 1/2 cup cocoa, firmly packed 2-1/4 cups all-purpose flour 2 teaspoons baking soda 1/4 teaspoon salt 1 cup mayonnaise 1-1/4 cups sugar 1 teaspoon vanilla extract Preheat oven to 350°F, and grease and flour two 8-inch cake pans. In a small bowl, pour the boiling water over the cocoa, and whisk until smooth. Set aside. Sift together the flour, baking soda and salt. Set aside. In the large bowl of an electric mixer, beat together the mayonnaise and sugar at medium speed until light and fluffy, about 3 minutes. Add the vanilla and cocoa mixture, beating until incorporated. With mixer at low speed, gradually add the flour mixture, beating just until batter is combined. Pour batter into prepared pans, and bake 25 to 30 minutes or until a cake tester inserted in center comes out clean. Cool 10 minutes; remove from pans to wire racks. Allow to cool completely before frosting. This cake is very moist providing it's not overbaked, can be just dusted with powdered sugar, it is rich enough to omit the frosting. Enjoy!

So Ham, why don't you call or email Wayne Clapp regarding Sowers relationship to CFF? Clapps email is on the CFF contact page... I don't think there is too much cross involvement or monitering from CFF, CFF is loosely affiliated with many outside fellowships that aren't CFF fellowships. Their commonality is in the worship of the old vicster and the progeny involvement with CFF.

They've been dealing harshly with people for years, they have no conscience, just like TWI they've been vilifying anyone who questions them and leaves, the "leadership" is never wrong, and the person is mocked, desparaged and maligned after they've left. Guess it keeps things tidy, no loose ends or anything to explain or talk about, this group doesn't think they're doing anything wrong... Just like TWI...

LEAD wasn't all it was cracked up to be either, when you start peeling back the layers, like so many other things associated with TWI, it was pretty rotten underneath, it was destructive and hurt a lot of people at too great of a personal cost for some to ever make it a worthwhile endeavor. There have been several threads here about LEAD before: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...698&hl=lead http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...955&hl=lead http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...855&hl=lead

Hi Jim! My family, we are gun enthusiasts, everyone shoots including the kids, we are very interested what will happen with this ruling too.

Socks, I agree with you, I didn't mean to sound contradictory with the Islam statement, more like an observation of closed societal constraints don't always provide uplifting results... When I think of some of the great men (women) in the bible, they seem to have incubated and cultivated within themselves a heart for God, and their intimate connection wasn't given horizontally from people, but from above, from God. Sure they had teachers, but it was what the individual did within his own heart that made that leap into "spiritual perception and awareness" given from God. I'm not so sure any institution can impart that, it comes from the heart and from God.

This statement is complete and utter B*** S***!! If their "leadership" is so qualified then how come one of them IMO didn't treat his wife very well the whole time he was serving? How convenient to overlook that, surely a minister should be forgiven that slight slip up....he should be pushed up the chain again so he can serve...I'm sure its no problem....

Ham,You know if they came out and admitted that they were part of vp's and twi's deceptions then they'd have to have some personal introspection and evaluation as to their roles in that deception, and they'd have to say, "I'M SORRY"! Then they'd have to suffer the loss of people following their organization and walking, as did many when they connected the dots concerning vp and twi. Probably too much to ask. That's what I like to see, the good church people walking lockstep behind their preacher! Which is worse, the homosexual or the Samaritan? More like fear motivation controlling your twig's minds for them so they don't have to do it themselves, isn't that special?

Socks, wouldn't Islam be a prime example of a practical theology in action, especially in the Middle East where the whole culture is appointed toward it? Lot's of room for extremes and abuse within it though, especially with those that believe in Sariah form of Islam, immersion doesn't guarantee success. The problem with these guys in MS is they've glazed over the problems with twi by either blaming Chris Geer, Martindale, et al, for its downfall, and have blinders on concerning Vp. So much of the bad about TWI they've kept and embraced. The individual doesn't stand a chance. Those running this new venture don't get it, they don't get that the body of Christ is an organic entity, and the whole idea of the TWI model was corrupt from the inception, wasn't it TWI that took the God and Christ right out of the picture and put men at the helm instead? Some of the individuals running this thing are severely flawed people and should never be in charge of the flock. Many were fooled by vic in the old days, it all looked ok on the outside, it sure fooled all of us.

I think you hit the nail on the head on this one Ham, I think they feel the same way and want to go "home" again. One of the models that old vp studied before he started twi was E Stanley Jones' Christian ashrams, what sowers is doing is very much like a commune as was twi. The only difference is this group is an ultra uber Wierwille loyalist organization, far more than CFF is, myabe more than any other existing organization. They have gone so far as to hold foundational classes using bootleg CD's of the old vp PFAL classes, they are under the belief that doc vp was right, and especially spiritually right, and should be revered and honored, totally ignoring any evidence to the contrary. Somehow they are not making the connection between the actions they were eye witnesses to from Vp, twi leadership, twi policies and doctrine and how they were harmful to others, they are emotionally tied to the old twi, and cannot see the forest thru the trees, they still believe in the twi unspoken principle that above all else, the ministry be not blamed..People will get hurt.. .Sacrificing the welfare of a human being on the alter of the ministry is not beyond their belief system. From what I know of members of their group, IMO they are not capable enough to handle the spiritual life of my pet hamster, let alone any other individual’s spiritual, emotional or physical well being…very dangerous stuff.

I've read that book! You're right, it's just like the mice scenarios in that book, the only thing is, if any in these offshoot retread groups ever read that book, they would probaby think it doesn't apply to them, it seems a good healthy dose of ego, arrogance and smugness always applied to the status quo ministry talking heads. There are reasons why the old twi failed, too bad they just can't, or won't, see it... I dunno, it's all very sad indeed.

Ham, Sounds like a project that is doomed to fail...again. The problem, at least one of the problems that is, is they are glorying in the wrong man. Which brings this hymn to mind: The Solid Rock My hope is built on nothing less Than Jesus' blood and righteousness.... On Christ the solid rock I stand, All other ground is sinking sand. All other ground is sinking sand.

Waysider, Priceless! LOL!!! And always remember to Save the Liver!!

Ham, Why are they doing it? They are futily trying to capture light in a bottle...to vainly relive old glory days and to infuse their own broken down selves with "new and improved" memories and purpose, to feel that old feeling that they are "right" again... or shall I say "righteous" again...they are attempting a "do-over". Perhaps they are trying to erase painful memories and correct the errors of the past, and/or to exercise their own personal demons, maybe it's ego, pride, carnality, maybe a mix of all of the above... I think they find insular self validation by bringing young people into it; with the hope that their ministry is vital and of God (a retread of the past legacy), the increase of the young people being the validating proof of that to themselves-perhaps it prooves to them that they are on the right track and validates and insures those vp revelations of old are not falling to the ground...Perhaps because Shroyer is no longer in charge is why this has developed and these particular people have stepped forward. IMO, behind the facade, both are very lost people, one rather naive, the other, seriously messed up and seriously lost, a drowning man looking for something to grab on to..and maybe something to clear his conscious...maybe some self redemtion. Unfortunately they have rejected the pure, unadulterated salvation of God, and are trying to meet out their own salvation with the work of their own hands, continueing in the traditions of old. Just my opinion though...