now I see

Maybe I'm making this too hard, I'm a newbe at this... "Things seem different here. They say God made Australia last, don't you know, after he got tired of making everything else the same." "Well, I seen some pretty country, that's for certain...You sure look pretty in that new blue dress." "If you go after Marston, he'll kill you." "Kid, next time she talks like that, pee all over the dress."

Same timeperiod but.....Here's more... "Lady, you're about a half a bubble off plumb, and that's fer sure and fer certain." "I remember once my Granddaddy told me how, when you're lost in the desert, you should sleep during the day and walk at night." "Your Granddaddy tell you that? Did he also tell you we'll die, in the the desert, without those horses?" "Well, what good are horses, if we die of thirst?" "Once in a while she actually makes a little sense." "What did you say, Roy?" "Never mind." "You know, if we're lost, you can tell me." "We're lost." "I can take bad news. Just tell me straight." "I don't know where the hell we are." "No sense takin' time to make it sound better than it is." "I reckon we're goin' in circles." "Wire things up and I'll see right through. So, just tell me honestly. Are we lost?" "Nope. I know exactly where we are." "That's good, 'cause, frankly, I was gettin' a little worried."

Ok, I'll go ahead, you all probably would like some fresh blood mingling in on this thread?? Thanks for the posting tip George, I use Opera browser, we'll see if it works...

Right era, further away though... "Ah ha. Legendary Sharps." "You know your weapons. It's a lever-action, breech loader. Usual barrel length's thirty inches. This one has an extra four. It's converted to use a special forty-five caliber, hundred and ten grain metal cartridge, with a five-hundred forty grain paper patch bullet. It's fitted with double set triggers, and a Vernier sight. It's marked up to twelve-hundred yards. This one shoots a mite further." "An experimental weapon with experimental ammunition." "You could call it that." "Let's experiment."...I seem to remember you're not too familiar with Colonel Colt's revolver, so this will be your first lesson. Don't worry. Mr Dobkin and Mr. O'Flynn will ensure that it's a fair contest. I'll just back up a few paces... And to your left a bit, that's it... Now you're right in front of my old pistol target. Some men are born in the wrong century. I think I was born on the wrong continent. Oh, by the way, you're fired" "This ain't Dodge City. And you ain't Bill Hickok....I said, I never had much use for one. Never said I didn't know how to use it."

You were really the one that knew it, it should be your turn....?

"Some men are born in the wrong century. I think I was born on the wrong continent. Oh, by the way, you're fired" "This ain't Dodge City. And you ain't Bill Hickok." "I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn't know how to use it."

Hildago...? Arab mare gave it away, actually the language was too racey for Snowy River in the original quote.

Ok, Fat old bow legged grandma with family playing tennis and Guy Lombardo.... How bout, Family Guy?

Guy Lombardo.

The Man from Snowy River?

Excie, I'm so sorry the twi years still haunt you, it does help to talk about it, it is awful that so many good people were preyed upon by those in power at twi. I think abusers look for people who have histories of being abused, especially those who they feel will stay silent about it. I also think they are inherently insecure cowards, only picking on those weaker than themselves. A serial predator like wierwille would have been constantly evaluating and analyzing every woman or man he ever came across for weak spots, a ticking time bomb of sorts, looking for opportunity. We all had our guards down and were vulnerable in that I think we were all very committed to the goal, very committed to God, and the idea that our ministry was the best vehicle for helping others find God...and perhaps our eyes weren't open to seeing the top men in anything other than the best light. I think vp tactically used that against us, and had no conscience regarding what he did to others especially when he wanted something from them, both men and women, we can see that even from the early days of the ministry.

Ham, not just twi and it's offshoots buy into the liberals are spiritually compromised doctrine, practically every large southern church does too. Visit any baptist based web board and its sickening how they put down anyone who doesn't walk lockstep after the company line. Heap onto that pile how non trinitarians, LDS, JW's, unwed mothers, and gays are viewed, or anyone who partakes in tattoos, smoking, drinking, unusual haircuts, ad infinitum, the list goes on and on.. Considering that Jesus, who was a radical in his own times, actually talked to and helped prostitutes, Samaritans, the possessed, and lepers, which really got people's dander up when he'd do that, I wonder if these types of aforementioned Christians would actually let him join their congregations? Globally what we see with radical Islamist seperatists is frightening, Catholics and Protestants in Ireland have been warring against each other for centuries, high cast vs low cast Hindu's in India, the list goes on.. People like to belong to groups, maybe some sort of innate social herd mentality, but where religion is concerned, its a trademark across the planet to be exclusionary, IMO, that's why the Jesus Movement in the 60's was so radically different. I think ole veepee was the ringmaster, he insulated himself by bringing in others into his secret world, maybe that was a calculated move. Harder for anyone to depose him, disgrace him, take the ministry away from him, fire him, out him, or call him into question when everyone at the top does it and is in on it, including his trustees...It was the 60's, so it probably wasn't a far stretch for some to go to the free love mentality, although I believe it was pure lust and selfish sexual gratification for wierwille. To my knowledge vpee was the only one who drugged nonconsenting women/girls, how many others were raping women, I don't know. I believe there's a record in L Recio's book about a gang rape at Emporia, I haven't read it myself though, maybe someone here who has can contribute more facts, I have read here about one LC raping someone when he spent the night at their house. There are many accounts of sexual assaults outside of rape that have been reported here. Twi was probably fertile ground for abuse for those with predispositions to be abusers since the head honchos condoned as principle that any woman is yours if you want her. IMO, the ones who were as culpable as veepee were the pimps for him and martindale, R*amona, DM, the many bus drivers, et al, they used people as merchandise for sexual purposes. Too bad no one ever was able to successfully press criminal charges.

'Cept he liked the money......and the women......and the power.......and the adulation.....and the controll.....and the guilt free doctrine......and the toys......and the prestige....ok, I'll stop now..

Wasn't VP who pushed the Lamsa version of the NT, and didn't VP believe the NT was written in (Pedangta) Aramaic, devoting countless research hours to it? Obviously misguided...

And sometime within those 2 events it was announced that there would be an abstinence from any new research from the Research Dept. I remember listening to a Corps night hookup or a tape where Walter mimicked the statement, at the time I remember wondering why, and not being able to put my finger on it. The ruling of course, came down from C Geer, because of the Schonheit paper....

Ironic, that for all our studying we still were so far from the truth, left it up to others to do the "biblical research" that we prided ourselves in, which also resulted with so many in the knowledge puffeth up category, miles away from God and His Son Jesus Christ. . Great post jeast!

Wow, that was beautiful, Another Dan!

Proverbs 6: 12-15 "A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord. Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy." VPee, the behind the scenes man, orchestrating the destruction of souls.

One of things that is doubly disconcerting to me was this happened to Sandra Ann Sullivan so early on in twi's history, it was in 1974, she had been with veepee and then passed to Howard before she became vp's secretary. So early on this predatory deviancy was being practiced and fine tuned by VP and Howard. The record in Karl's book states Del Dunc*n even took this issue to the trustees at this time, but with no avail. The more that's uncovered about veepee's practices, the more cynical I get over whether he did really believe in God and the bible or was the bible simply his schtick to get the money, power and the adulation in order to indulge his appetites? It appears that veepee was a bottomless pit ...... it must have broken the hearts of the real men and women of God along the way who were victims or tried to help the victims back in the day. Very sad indeed.

What is the bible today may not be all the scripture that was God breathed...some books, parts, words may have been added, or left out completely. I consider a large part of what we were taught in twi was twisted and spiritually bankrupt. We were fed a big messy pot of congealed goo doctrines that were either invented or stolen in many cases, by old dear vic. Who knows if any were authoritative sources, Cummins, vp et al, were sloppy in their workmanship, veepee often in a Dramboui haze, not to mention what was taught was mixed with a constant sprinkling of manipulative coercion and control tactics, all care of an ego driven, paunchy old fart, who got off on money, power and serial sexual deviancy....nice mix! We all need to start over and rework EVERYTHING..

I'm sure there are others, but this thread brings to mind Tom Mitchell, his suicide was tragic, Loy has his blood on his hands, and Ramona, a real piece of work.

I think many in twi turned the "must be coroborated by two or three witnesses" rule on its ear. In this case, it gives them an out to not deal with the problem which is at red light crisis level, it allows the state leaders to do nothing and then fall all over themselves pointing fingers at eachother. It never solves the probelm and leaves the rank and file in a state of confusion, something der vey was very good at doing, not caring for the flock and letting them get scattered! The by two or three witness rule allowed twi to railroad innocent people by orchestrating meetings where two or three big guns would fire accusations at their target, often with a roomfull of people who were coached beforehand, intimidating and shouting at a sole victim, with no support,fielding outrageous accusations . Often this was a precurser or death march for the unsuspecting target victim, culminating with his dismissal and often being marked and avoided. This method was a winning combination sucker punch that twi used regularly to get rid of people or make them grovel. This also was very effective when a sole victim of rape or sexual predadation told their story, often the act was committed with no one else there besides the perpatrator and victim, therefore no other witnesses supported their accusations against the leader. No wonder these cases thru the years never saw the light of day. It's just not right, twi maliciously used the scriptures as a club to beat the victims down.

Hi Penworks, Karl's book says 1974, its here:http://www.ex-way.com/excerpts/chapter14.htm

Wouldn't this make him a murderer? To drive someone to this end?

Here's an example of this backward thinking promoted by vic in an excerpt from Karl Kahler's book "the Cult that Snapped", http://www.ex-way.com/excerpts/chapter14.htm "Jim Doop, who buried Gary Dunhoff, told me how he died, as did Del Duncan, and John Desmond gave the same account to the Indianapolis Star. Dunhoff came out of Doop's fellowship in Mill Valley, and was in the Corps with Doop in 1974-75, as was Desmond. The Corps was on the infamous "colon cleanse," a mandatory three-week diet that involved one week of consuming only water mixed with a volcanic ash solution while taking laxatives and vitamins. In the second and third week, food was gradually reintroduced. The aim was to clean out the colon, for which enemas were also used. Desmond told the Star that Dunhoff got tired of the colon cleanse and drove into St. Marys to buy a bag of cookies. Doop said Dunhoff and another member, John Nave, went into town for another reason and did pick up a bag of cookies, but he called it "a very spontaneous thing." On their way back, their car was struck by a woman driving 40 miles an hour. "Gary was in intensive care for 12 days, and my wife and I had to take care of his mom and dad while they were there," said Doop. "We were with them round the clock." Back at Headquarters, said Desmond, "We were told that we were going to pray this guy out of the hospital because we were spiritual macho men. Dr. Wierwille really believed and had us believing that no one could die while in the Way Corps." Dunhoff died anyway. Wierwille called a meeting to announce his death. Then, said Desmond, Wierwille told everyone who had cheated on the colon cleanse to raise their hands. Then he told everyone who knew about the cheating to raise their hands. Everyone with a hand in the air, he said, was directly responsible for Gary Dunhoff's death. "You were taught to follow the leader, right or wrong," said Desmond. "After that God show, if you didn't believe it before, you did at that point." Doop said they buried Gary in the woods at Headquarters. "Probably the most devilish thing that came out of it was that John Nave was completely ostracized by Wierwille, treated very, very poorly," said Doop. "He never got off his back. John did everything he possibly could to redeem himself." Del Duncan was in Wierwille's office when John Nave came to talk to him, seeking forgiveness more than a year after Gary's death. "And as he walked in the door, these are the exact words that Wierwille used: 'Well, how's the murderer of Gary Dunhoff doing today?' And John never got over that. It's been a scar in his life ever since. He's still a very damaged man from that." I showed Duncan the "Death List," asking if he knew anyone on it besides Gary, and he said yes when he came to the following: 1974 - Dead - Sandra Ann Sullivan - committed suicide one month after becoming a secretary at Way Hdq. in New Knoxville, Ohio. Del said she had been sexually involved with Wierwille. "She had already been involved before she became a secretary, with Wierwille and Howard Allen, and the impact on her was so great that she took her life," he said. "I talked to her and counseled with her a little bit, and also went before the Board of Trustees on it to try to get some reckoning about what this girl was going through, and others, but it was to no avail.""