now I see

Just to state it for the record, DWBH said the reason he took it to the board initially is because Jalvis didn't man up and follow through with DWBH as promised. That is why he took it here, to the board, to discuss openly the reasoning behind Jalvis' handling of the people, and his offshoot ministry. In light of their mutual accord in the start of Jalvis' enterprise, it is DWBH's right to comment, as well as Jalvis' own entreaty and admonition to DWBH to comment on it, and in light of our mutual former affiliation in twi, it is our right as a board and body, dedicated to shedding the light on twi and enlightening the people, to comment in turn on everything STFI, Jalvis, personal prophecy, momentus, etc., ad nauseam.

Let's not muddy the waters here, NO ONE is objecting to the wierewille apologists stating their opinions in all their glory and their multitude of flavors and colors, what we are objecting to the most is the fact that the tellers of personal stories involving vp, et al, are being harangued, questioned, and charged about their veracity, with a nebulous demand to prove their statements. And the fact they flamebait and troll with endless debates on using the term apologist and wierwill in the same sentence. That is all. The overruning of threads which are sensitive in nature and the fact those get derailed is what is not kosher here. Go ahead and knock yourselves out apologists, tell all your opposing viewpoints, just have a modicome of decency in judgment on what threads to do it on.

Nice to see you, Raf, and you are right!!!! You're up!

I think extra scrutiny is deserved on any thread where the victimized are telling their story. If posters here cannot controll themselves or determine what an appropriate response is or whether no response is appropriate, then yes, they should be held in time outs, or banned. Like Rhino said, trolling and flamebaiting is against the forum rules as it inhibits and derails the contributing posters and the thread. I think Pawtucket does need the community here to rise up and say we've had enough though. I think some of these poster's mission is to search and destroy anytime they see any anti-wierwille apologist postings, disrupting any thread that mentions it. They should be delt with if that is their mission. Which is quite ironic, seeing that this whole website is dedicated to lifting the veil off of the golden image of der vey and its golden cow-der vicster. Hi Abigail, if you didn't read the "Losing the Way" thread before the offending posts were deleted, nor listen to the podcast, you wouldn't really get the reason we find the recent posts by the apologists so offensive. It was way over the top, the debate consumed the thread and the free expression of those of us who were strongly moved by the podcast was interrupted.

Here's an excerpt from his web site, I can identify with some of these "challlenges" he's listed, weird that these are universal syndrome symptoms, who knew?: -------------------------------- "You may not realize the problems many of us share as former cult members. If you recognize any challenges listed below, know that you are not alone. And that, together, my clients and I have worked successfully to improve them." financial difficulties, lack of career direction, identity confusion, difficulty holding a job dissociative states ("spacing out") floating into and out of your cult or other high-demand groups panic or anxiety attacks depression post-traumatic stress stress symptoms, such as headaches, backaches, asthma, and others difficulty making decisions dependency on others slowed psychological development (difficulty maturing) guilt, fear, or shame sleep disorders (insomnia, hypersomnia, or nightmares) eating disorders sexuality issues difficulty trusting fear of intimacy or commitment harassment by your former group grieving your former group or loss of friends or family difficulty with spirituality and many other challenges after leaving their groups.

The next hint is...there are 4 words in the title, the second word is - "and".

Hey, bfh, you got it right!!!!! You're up!

Great post Socks, what you said hit the nail on the head.

You got the words right, this is one where if you say it fast you will get it. The movie came out in 2006, its a family movie.

Nope, that's not it, but it is a chick flick...here's more: - It's my fault. - What? It's not fair to you, this whole thing. Come here. Tell me, let me help. I took advantage of you and I did it with the help of a kid. I was just on some wild ride. I thought... I thought I was in love enough for both of us. I jumped at your proposal when it was still just hypothetical. I did this, and at least I can do something about it now. I'm not a guy who runs. I stick. - I don't need you to stick. - What do you want? My soul? - Why not? I deserve that. - What if I'm not built that way? - I think we made a mistake. - What if it's true? Great at friendship, bad at intimacy. That's the theme of my bachelor film. I know, I watched lt. I know it by heart. - I don't like to give up. - Please... My need to make the best of things, and your need to be responsible ... If we don't do something now, we could lose ten years being polite. Let's just call this next road trip what it really is: A nice long break. What about Ray? Well, you'll be friends. - Friends? - Yes. - Of course you'll be friends. - I'll take him to the zoo. - So this break is a breakup. - Come on, this isn't easy for me. On the surface everything looks fine. I've got this great guy, and he loves my kid. And he sure does like me a lot. And I can't live like that..... It's not how I'm built. ............................. - Can I ask you a personal question? - Are we gonna be friends now? - Have you dated any single mothers? I was raised by a single mother. I think, after this, she's gonna have to take that job in San Diego. First of all, single mothers don't date. They've been to the puppet show and they've seen the strings. Do you love her...? Don't tell me you don't know. I don't want her to go. We've been hanging out a lot. That's bs! You've got to be fair to her. Single mothers are a sacred thing. You've got to have the talk. She loves you. If you don't love her, you've got to tell her. The kid's amazing. He... I feel you...But a real man wouldn't shoplift the pooty from a single mother. I didn't shoplift the pooty....All right, I shoplifted the pooty.

Happy 4th!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pShR8iZGRIA...feature=related

Here's one in honor of our troops.

The first one is an old wierd recipe-Gruel done the southern way: The second is in honor of Independence Day, July 4th, and Newark, New Jersey...:

Here's some more: The kid's amazing. He... I feel you... But a real man wouldn't shoplift the pooty from a single mother. I didn't shoplift the pooty.....All right, I shoplifted the pooty.

This one's not funny, its more like tragedy, but I thought it was a good observation pinpointing how twi was in reality a myth, a fairytale, an imitation of what a christian ministry was really supossed to be:

Hey if V2P2 has to follow in the old (dead) man's steps....does that mean he'll have to become a rapist too?

Talk about being brainwashed! How embarassing to think we actually could consider the veracity of H.E. Wierwille's statements. Some business leader? Really? Having been the one to pick up the pieces after two deaths, if you do nothing, you are burdening the living with undue responsibilities and demands in dealing with the loss and dealing with the details of what's left behind. I advocate a will and a trust in addittion if you have any children, a spouse, or any assests totaling over $5000.00. It is much nicer for and less of a load for your loved ones and relatives to bear the burden of dealing with the government and your estate, as well as their greif, if you have planed ahead with them in mind after you're gone.

It's got to be a sickness that propells (drives) these men to try to re-create what they had in the twi hayday with vpw. It says something about themselves as a person; there's got to be something missing inside them that makes them go back to putting themselves out there like this and setting themselves up as some sort of leader, just like vic set himself up as one. It's like Dr Evil died and his Mini Me's are all trying to have a do over and re-create the glory days. I definitely get that impression from Jalvis here, and from the Sowers people, setting up their little fiefdoms to duplicate the one that screwed them up so much, filling a void and gap in their own desperate lives. They are lusting after the past and can't even see what they're doing. Talk about spiritual sharpness? They are blindly serving a dead guy, and following him off into oblivion. How fresh and inspiring!

Amazing there's another video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxqRN5vjDHQ&NR=1 where it shows that after he was debunked on the Johnny Carson show in 1987 he declared bankruptcy, layed low for a few years, then re-imerged perpetraiting the same schtick in his $23 million dollar ministry in 2005. It looks like the guy (and his wife and two kids) is willing to put in the time to make millions, he (they) just can't stop being a flim flam man, taking filthy lucre from innocent people hoping for miracles. Reminds me of someone....and all his Mini Me's he left behind after he died who carry on the legacy......

Hey John, regarding your statement here at the end of your letter, “What did you do with what you knew?”, maybe it should be God and the bible itself that inspires us to do godly things? I think for 30+ years there's been a habit of "leaders" and twi people telling others what they think they should do, which is not their job. Rather, I think its God's and the individual person's job to decide what they are going to do in response to His Word. I think Socks got it right in his post: Why not just let every man decide for himself what he's gonna do with his own life, especially the ones who were under the twi regime, they all know enough to be able to just simply pick up the bible and read it for themselves to their own hearts desire, and then its really up to them what they're going to do with it, rather than an artificial response that's not from God. Some of my major regrets from my time with twi stem from doing things and involving myself with programs that were inspired from the group think twi fervor and the desires of vpw to regulate, mass market, and systematically formulate the movement of God's Word. I think especially, in light of our mutual past twi history, that God shouldn't be limited these ways, and maybe the concepts, bred in twi, regarding authoritative leadership should be examined.

Can I ask you a personal question? - Are we gonna be friends now? - Have you dated any single mothers? - I was raised by a single mother. I think, after this, she's gonna have to take that job in San Diego. First of all, single mothers don't date. They've been to the puppet show and they've seen the strings. Do you love her...? Don't tell me you don't know. I don't want her to go. We've been hanging out a lot. That's bs! You've got to be fair to her. Single mothers are a sacred thing. You've got to have the talk. She loves you. If you don't love her, you've got to tell her. The kid's amazing. He...

Lest we not forget, these letters of "spiritual" advice are coming from the man who promoted the spideyville personal prophecies, the momentus therapy, and who put away of his wife, all in the recent past. How can he think he has built a stable spiritual platform in his life to warrent the authoritative tone and message of these letters?....inconceivable... I think more people here feel sorry for and have empathy toward JAL more than anything else, I really don't think he has a clue about his audience here nor why we even bother to reply to him. I hope he figures it out some day....

Budget usually doesn't have too much of a markup when you drop off at a different location. Fox, dollar, thrifty, and budget, usually come in cheaper.