potato

1,557 people have my name. no one in the US has the last name I'm taking later this year. strange, since my fiance lives in the US.

I want to chime in and say that being "challenged" never helped me bring the abuse I was subject to out in the open. whenever I opened my mouth about it, the disbelief was tangible because "he's such a great guy, he'd never do that". I'm sure many patted themselves on the back for challenging me because my complaints seemed petty and undocumented. good TWIt "believers" they were, too, full of "love". I speak up about such things these days not for those who require proof that I was victimized because I owe them NOTHING. I speak up for other victims so they know they aren't alone.

yeah... the universe is a pretty amazing place. I watched "what the bleep do we know" near the beginning of my awakening from twi stupor and it shifted a lot of what I believed according to twi dogma... which is why I don't want to judge anyone for their beliefs (unless the belief is clearly delusional, like the one where vpw was a man of good character ). I do try to understand other positions if I can. I understand and accept that people believe the trinity, I just don't understand the doctrine itself.

the trinity was the biggest stumbling block, for me, in taking christianity as a viable belief system. I refuse to judge anyone's take on god these days, I'll leave that up to twi dogs and their ilk. here's the question that must be answered for me to understand jesus as anything more than he said he was: how can Jesus, a man, be born, live and die a man, yet be God when God says he is not a man? the only answer I have found that doesn't hatch more questions is his resurrection surely transformed him. but it does not transform what he was before his transformation. unless something else is revealed that makes the trinity understandable, I will follow Jesus' teachings. he was a man. beyond the issue of Jesus' status as God, I have issues with what John says. if we take John 14 literally, Jesus is the comforter. if we take it figuratively, there is a one-ness with God that can only be achieved through Jesus who intercedes. I don't understand at all the separation of holy spirit as an entity unto itself. I've tried to understand my trinitarian friends' doctrines, but I'm afraid they've never been able to explain it so it makes sense.

thanks for this thread, Belle. uptown's attitude is one of the things I'm so thankful to get away from in twi. while people like that hold each other up as examples of what everyone should be like, those of us who are caring for parents or children, who don't make enough money or are trying to better our financial situation so we can take care of our own and have resources to genuinely bless others (and I'm not talking about having a stupid bible "fellowship" in my house) are made to feel bad because we aren't sacrificing our children or parents or career or education to do such a research project??? whatEVERdude. here's my verse for today: 2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. I remember a not-so-funny story... some of the husbands got the bright idea that they should be able to "work" the "word" like vpw, and since mrs. vpw worked as a nurse while he did that, they should be able to expect their wives to do the same for them so they could be "great men of God", and the little women could raise the kids, too. according to uptown, I guess those couples should have been commended for it, but really all that happened was a bunch of lazy men had fun and wore their poor wives out.

I can't quite figure out who said this, it was in quotes but I couldn't find any original post containing it... "I'm sorry if you (and others) see VPW as someone who used the bible to manipulate and gain power, when he was actually there for God's people - especiailly at times when they needed him the most. Are you still looking for sympathy from others because of this? Well, I'm so sorry to hear just how badly you and others here had gotten short changed and were literally "screwed" out of your own "good bible experience" by VPW." OK... so... how was he there for God's people when he was raping drugged women? oh, and I'm really glad he was dead before I had a chance to sit in on the dog porn movie.

welcome to the GWOTH side, T-bone.

I also stepped into the middle of the fight without realizing what was going on, but the discussion did bring up some good points. I agree with TempleLady's post about heritage. we love to celebrate our roots, when we can find them, even when they're not so savory. heritage when you've got dark skin has been "africa" or "slave" or things I won't say. where I'm from, people of all shades celebrate their Scottish or Indian heritage, but they can't say I am Zulu, I am Bantu, I am Watusi. I grew up in an area where most people were much darker than I. when I moved to Colorado, it felt strange living where the only dark-skinned person in the county spoke with an african accent. when I moved home, I was dismayed when my kids identified people as "black" or "white". I explained to them that I am not "white". I'm not the color of snow or milk. my skin is the color of a peach milkshake. my daughter's teacher was not "black". no one is the color of the night sky between the stars. her skin is the color of chocolate ice cream. I wanted them to understand everyone is completely unique, but I also told them that if they can only see the color of someone's skin, they know nothing about them, and since every other person I know is darker than me, referring to someone by a generic label like "black" means nothing to me, any more than saying "that white chick" in a room full of pale women will help me pick out the right person. what does her hair look like, how does she laugh, what color is her shirt, what does she like to do? these are the things that express the person. the shade of their skin is actually only part of what they look like, that's all. cultural roots go way beyond that, but heritage is part of that. and I was jealous - JEALOUS of my sister's honey-colored skin when I was growing up. I'm pale with freckles :( the color of our skin is as much a part of us as the color of our hair or how tall we are. or in my case, short.

judging from what I've heard of the MOG tradition, our MOGWOTHs will probably procreate indiscriminately and we'll have to convince many of our male members that they have not been cuckolded by their GWOTH dancer wives... once we arrange advantageous marriages to secure our power strengthen our ministry... are you game for the challenge? there will be descendants!

dooj, my girls can work in the kitchen when they aren't dancing in the bus. I'm pretty sure they can mix good koolaid serve cheesecake properly.... the should be able to rip the cellophane off all those cheesecake wedges all right... I hope.

lots of them! I will be the madame coordinator of the gwoth groupies dancers!

Groucho, I have a bus. can I join the order of the gwoths? first on my agenda is a music festival... the festival of gwoth music.

I reeeeaaaally hope that was a joke, OM.

that's another email for me to write, looks like. apparently the universities believe in disclosure even if twi believes in hiding, so I'm in favor of getting information out to those of us whose money went to these places, whether the money went directly or indirectly. and yeah, Belle. if twi was honest, we wouldn't be running across these things and wondering.

I don't see that. no one is accusing him of stealing a punctuation mark. no one can steal individual characters. that's the dumbest thing I've heard pulled out by his defenders so far. a question mark is a far cry from paragraphs and chapters. I used to think like you when I was under the spell of the great MOGs. I'm so glad I don't anymore. reason is a beautiful thing, especially when it's not clouded by the need to excuse someone's behavior so I can continue to worship them.

because they are accountable to no one, they can do what they like with the property purchased by our hard-earned labor. it is a testament to their slothfulness that they purchased so much event equipment over the years and gave it away behind our backs. GT, good... although the discovery caused no small stir and suspicion (amazing that we're so prepared to think ill of twi and its motives? not really) and ended up being a "smaller sin" than appeared, it's a sin nonetheless. the end result of this thread is that here's another example of twi's fiscal irresponsibility toward those who supported it so long.

oldies, that's actually not surmising. both content and format are the author's work. what WW is saying is the theft is so blatant that vpw didn't even bother to try to cover his tracks by changing the format. which book did you find of vpw's without a copyright notice? and are you sure it came out of twi and wasn't an "illegal" reprint? it wouldn't surprise me to find out people were reprinting vpw's garbage even back then.

good point... they got their tax exempt status back after losing it for getting involved in politics. I don't know what monies are exempt, and I don't know what concessions Ohio makes, so I don't know if they would have got any benefit from the donation in that regard.

I saw a reconstruction of the slave ships once, on some documentary. I wish I could remember the name of it. the fruit piled up in the center bins in the grocery store... that's how people were transported to the americas to work as slaves. I'm amazed they could extricate dead bodies, as tightly as they pack people into the cargo holds. people didn't move for weeks. many more died than survived the trip.

that's an awesome story, CW. there's a very small minority, but I think it's bigger than most suspect, of men who are victimized in violent relationships, who stay for the sake of the kids because in many states, a man still cannot get help and cannot leave WITH the kids. I've met some who's situations leave them in such despair, because the only way they can help their kids survive is by staying in the relationship. I would love to see community efforts include them somehow.

agreed. community-based projects that give kids a sense of pride. community based family resources for counseling, computer access, etc. the best thing my area has going is the after school "school" with a very generous scholarship fund. kids take dance, arts, sports, writing, cooking... it's amazing what it's done for my kids socially, and there are kids from the poorest families who get to attend classes. if I could, I would volunteer there because it is such an awesome thing for the kids in my neighborhood.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! it's stuck in my head!!!!!!

I never knew that... bet that greased a lot of wheels... end result is money was brought in from all over the world to make it easier for a small group of people to get along with their neighbors, even though they're wackos. no benefit to the rest of the organization's followers that I can see.

ok everybody, I got the dirt on what exactly was donated, from UT: "In 2002, The Way International made an in-kind gift of an acoustic band shell for UT's Doermann Theatre. (Gifts-in-kind are donated goods, rather than monetary contributions.) The one-time gift, valued at approximately $100,000, also qualified the organization for recognition as a "Partner" in the University's cumulative giving society." so, it was a tax write-off and probably a PR move with the school, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn there was some wheel greasing, too. so, our ABS only indirectly went to UT. still makes me wonder... why?

thanks for the clarification, Neo. you really threw me off by putting "responses" in the plural and the thing about someone saying they had it all together. I couldn't remember reading anyone say that. anyway, welcome back to GS. I saw your quitter post when I was new, and liked the way you put it. and, what skyrider said. I loved Wayne to pieces when I was a wow and got to spend time at Rome City. but advertisements tend to rub me the wrong way, since I was in the business of recruiting people for twi when I was in... at least until they wore me down and I decided I couldn't bring people to such an unloving place even if I couldn't leave. you can share what you're learning there, if you like. but don't tell me I should check it out.