potato

bingo!!! it's actually stranger than that I think. they believe they can persuade you to see things their way. frighteningly enough, they often can. domestic abuse is often reinforced with verbal bullying to remember things a certain way. victims aren't given much consideration because they seem confused and inconsistent. I can testify from bitter experience that it's because they are confused and reality is inconsistent. a mere suggestion makes you doubt your version of events after a while. I don't feel alone any more... it's strange that when you talk about stuff like this to most people, if they haven't met someone like this, they sincerely can't believe you're telling the truth! that was an excellent movie. apparently it wasn't completely true, but what they did write gave some interesting insight in to pathological behavior. the dad scamming and blaming sort of taught the kid that this was how you get out of uncomfortable situations, then a personal crisis and BOOM! a pathological felon is born.

now I question whether my ex is a true pathological liar, because his lies seem to have a purpose and he'll work overtime to get people to believe him. the lies seem to be designed to make others look bad, him to look good, or make uncomfortable responsibilities disappear. he can fool people for a long time... years. then I took him to a counseling session after he told me he "do whatever it took" to keep me. I told him I couldn't take his lying anymore... so of course, when the counselor asked him "did you hit your wife" he said "no". for the first time, I got angry and said "he's lying" and he admitted the whole thing! but it didn't change the lying, as soon as we left he continued to lie exactly as he'd always done. I don't think he has a choice. he HAS to lie.... but he comes across to others as an honest guy. he can't just be himself, or take responsibility for his own life, or let other people get praise for what they do. I believe he's got narcisstic personality disorder.

I was married to a pathological liar for 17 years. he knows he's lying. he knows lying is wrong. when the truth is all that stands between him and what he wants, truth becomes optional... and he wants to be admired, he wants to spend money, and he doesn't want to be "responsible" unless there's some emotional payoff for him, like praise from his boss or not getting ragged on by people who scare him... but even then he has a policy of "if you don't get caught, it's golden". so, as you can imagine, he lies pretty much all the time about all kinds of things and it can seem pretty random.

this is another question I have to put on my list: could Jesus have sinned? if he could have sinned, he couldn't be God, or we're saying God can sin. if Jesus could not have sinned, being God, then the temptation to sin wasn't valid and he is not our high priest. so, the question I need an answer to in addition to the others is, could Jesus commit sin?

grandma wouldn't be welcome in my house after that. if she had legit concerns, then don't just threaten to call, make the call. while he shouldn't have tazered her (she wasn't a threat) I agree that escorting her out, bodily if necessary, sounds like a good idea. that, or have the cops do it.

thanks for bring up Ockham's Razor... I have to agree with you that maybe we're just missing the additional and simplest explanation of the biblical facts. damned if I know what it could be though. yep... you know I'm gonna hassle you along with everyone else, though

no way! I happen to know that Camp Gunnison is not a 5 star resort, never has been and never will be. I hope she didn't actually use the words "5 star" in her article because that is an actual quality designation you just don't throw around.

hush excie, hush... it's ok child. you're in the real world now.

there was a compound at Gunnison, too. even more compound-like than the Ohio compound.

ok, I thought you were saying we're obsessed... but yeah, I suppose it would be different if the real world was all you ever knew.

excie, so you're saying....

you know what's funny? I find I'm equally offended by the assumption that it's scripturally obvious that "Jesus is not God" as I am the statement that the "truth" of the trinity is scriptural. I got a laugh out of that.

Lindy, can you elaborate?

sorry starbird, you don't get to answer my question and no one else does either. that's not a discussion. I have posed my questions solely for myself, as well as the topics that bear looking into to make what I consider an informed decsion on the question, is Jesus God. they're my questions and no one else's because someone else may need a different question answered. the discussion at hand has been very helpful in identifying those areas where I lack understanding in the trinity and where I need answers if I'm going to adjust my opinion at all. I do feel like I have a better understanding of what the concept of the trinity means and I thank everyone for giving their insight and viewpoints.

I believed in the humanity of Jesus long before twi, so my belief is not sancrosact for vpw's sake. I have no issues with whether trinitarianism is considered monotheistic or not. my question is much simpler. is Jesus God? separate issue.

how does this apply in the context of honest discussion of the trinity?

I called and it was very healing.

sorry, sonofarthur... history does not bear this claim out. the whole church never did agree on this, there were dissenters aplenty both before and after the creed was formulated. as I have time, I'll be looking at the word Logos because it seems that the weight of scripture in support of this position hinges on the word Logos and the oneness of the father and the son (and also of the disciples, I might add). please do explain, I am very willing to read. I still don't beleive that these positions were universally held by the "church" from the beginning, as there is plenty of evidence that many disagreed and argued a different position.

that makes me sad. it would have been nice to get the perspective and tie up the loose ends... closure for some of us, ya know? why is it some are so quick to accuse someone of lying just because their experiences were different? I've seen that a couple of times here (I don't even count CK, he's just psychotic) and it's very hurtful.

but much of this comes down to personal opinion... whether something is interpreted figuratively or literally. there is no believing what the bible says without make a subjective judgment. trinity is true if you take some things literally and the rest figuratively. Jesus is not God if you take other things literally and the rest figurately. I'm left once again at my original statement, that I expect that something others consider so obvious should be easy to make sense of, and I think that's entirely reasonable.

you said "No disrespect intended, but why does something need to make sense to be true?" and I said "truth is assumed on both sides"... what I meant is the question is moot. all kinds of things are absolutes and don't make sense because we don't know the math behind them, or can't reason out point a to z on our own because we don't have the training.... but that has nothing to do with this, because we have two opinions based on evidence given, with entire constructs of reasoning that are sensible, vague, and at times seemingly invented, which are being called "truth". so, back to why I want to see some sense... since the assertion was made that God made it obvious in the bible to see the "truth" of the trinity, that's what I'm looking for here. it might be obvious to some people because they want to see it, but I'm not one of those, so it's going to be more of a challenge for me to see it. I'm not swallowing it just because someone else likes the idea. I also didn't say there's something wrong with it, but that also isn't enough to make me believe it.

check this thread: http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/thread-532304.php

awesome response, dooj! I might have to start using this. that said, sometimes I have to say "this is the way it is because I'm the mom". doesn't mean we don't talk about it, acknowledge how much we don't like it and how it will actually (believe it or not) help us be better people and run down the list of what we can learn. my son even got really ....ed today about a heavy law I had to enact, and when I started to acknowledge his anger he said "no mom, I just don't like the change. this isn't comfortable". and that said, I did swat my little one on the thigh today, just once, for climbing on to the top bunk and jumping on her brother's neck. she broke a rule and wouldn't listen. swat, timeout, hug, talk. she'll probably do it again, but she is... um... there's no good way to describe her except that the evil streak runs deep, and she's very smart. she's also full of love, thank God.

no disrespect, but truth is assumed on both sides. most of us choose to believe things based on whether they're sensible, not necessarily whether someone says they're true. uh... yeah, I know. now that I've identified the question, there is a wealth of opinion to sift through.