potato

very true, rascal. I can remember many times when a leader in twi would flip out on someone, tear them up, only to discover they were wrong but never apologize, just give some flip answer or a public speech about "what we all learned from this situation" and excuse the whole thing away, then claim they "took care of" their victim's "heart" in front of anyone who's attention they could get, I'm assuming to maintain their sense of control. I had friends who left over the humiliation that was dished out to them, and why I never left can only be explained by the fear that imprisoned my soul over what would happen to me and my kids. that's the example I saw far and wide in twi, and it was really hard for me to learn to say "I'm sorry, you didn't deserve what I said/did."

I started reading johniam's post with an open mind hoping he'd man up, and the more I read the sadder I got.

LOLOLOLOL!!!! thanks for posting that, now whenever I have a horrifying flashback the little football player tap dance routine will loop through my head. gawd AOS was awful. I remember now feeling sorry for the real talent in that production because the lead dancer was so bad (I didn't know who he was when I first saw it). plus, I forgot how much crotch sniffing The Forehead got to do. what a loser! parody is allowed by the copyright act, so twi has no rights where this is concerned.

I would have said the same thing at my ex's memorial if I'd been lucky enough for him to die, but I'm sure I'd have added "I'm glad he's gone" or something to that effect, so I can believe mrs. w was exercising a great deal of restraint to only say what she did. that poor woman.

the GS thread is here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=11191

I hope it ends up on youtube because I'd really like to see it.

hi drummer boy! I can relate! I found that twi's version of the renewed mind just made learning how to make decisions pretty much impossible. I got in at a critical time, as a confused young adult, and all the promises of being able to learn how to do the things I knew that I didn't know how to do were incredibly enticing... like learning how to make sound decision, know right from wrong, how to become prosperous, and have a personal relationship with God. none of those promises came true, although I think I somehow managed to partially accomplish the latter IN SPITE of twi's doctrines. the rest of it I'm finally learning.

amen sista. I'm about to start another bout of therapy. it's time. sharing experiences with people on GS has brought me to a point where I even have a handle on some things that evaded me the last time I did mental health work. mostly my life is about my kids. the damage they sustained because of twi and because my ex was and still is really screwed up has taken most of my time and energy for the past year. things are getting better though. I now have my family back since leaving twi. I have a couple of friends but I fear it will never be easy to trust people or make friends. too much waybrain still, I guess. I only had a couple of real friends the whole time I was in twi because I took lcm's doctrines seriously about not needing outsiders, but most people didn't like the real me and were always trying to change me. it was hard to consider outsiders for friends at first, too, but I ended up marrying one :)

thanks waysider! I'll keep puttin' it down :)

welcome belding. I was afraid of leaving, too. I've only been out a little over a year. sounds like they didn't change their imprisonment tactics! the fear of my kids dying if I left God's protection "in the household of zion" is what kept me in far too many years.

Bumpy, I look at GS and the experiences people share here as a catalyst for my own recovery from waybrain. it might have happened 20 years ago or it might have happened a week ago, the time frame doesn't make the experience less real or less helpful to others who may find themselves coming from a similar background. I can't think of anyone I've chatted with here who's used GS as a replacement for private therapy, nor do I advocate it. however, if GS hadn't been here and there hadn't been helpful people who related to the things I posted and answered my questions, it would have taken a lot longer to get out of twi. it's possible I'd still be in, too afraid of what would happen to my family if I dared leave. I don't think I blamed anyone for being unsympathetic. there's always the option to keep one's mouth shut instead of calling someone a liar just because their experience taints one's fond memories. if that was all GS was about, I doubt I'd be here. I came here because I needed to heal. I keep coming because there are still things to heal from, and more importantly, people will keep finding this place because twi still exists.

to elaborate further now that I've got my coffee... little frankie comes to mommy and says "father so and so touched my pee-pee." mommy gets angry and says "don't ever say such awful things about our wonderful priest again! shame on you!" frankie is confused because he was just attacked, and for what he isn't sure... mommy thinks he's a liar, or she's just angry about frankie talking about his pee-pee. what frankie finds as he grows up is that he feel worse and worse, his priest's behavior gets worse and worse, and whenever he tries to talk about it, people are aghast... at FRANKIE, not at the priest! in twi many of us were like children of abusive parents, with no rights and no voice. if a woman was abused, leadership (mommy) didn't want to hear.

it IS a personal attack to tell someone they're a liar. I think it's particularly a sensitive issue for women, who never had a voice in twi and who were in general told to appreciate their husbands and leaders and forget about having feelings. now, they come somewhere and reveal things to help others and to heal, and for their supposed brothers to offer justifications for the abuser's actions, to write them off, or to place responsibility on the woman for being young, naive and trusting, IS a personal attack because they're basically saying "you're at fault for one of the following reasons: you're not seeing it from the pov of the person you're accusing (i.e. the rapist), you're lying, or you should have known better than to get on that motor coach with vpw."

of course, WD. I read lcm's first-hand account, and I imagine vpw's would go something like this: investigator: please explain what happened, miss. young believer woman: he invited me to his motor coach and asked me to minister to him, and the next thing I knew he was forcing me to have sex. is that rape? investigator: if he forced you to have sex against your will, then it is rape. did he rape you? young believer woman: yes, he raped me. investigator: mr. vpw, did you force this woman to have sex with you? vpw: no, I did not force her. gawd told me that she would be healed if we had sexual intercourse, and she never said no so I took her silence as obedience to gawd and a desire to experience spiritual healing at the hands of the man of gawd.

I tend to feel really ripped off when I buy a pair of jeans with a designer label at a boutique, only to find the jeans were actually mass market produced and available at walmart for a fraction of the price. oh wait, in the real world, were that to happen, people would recognize it as criminal.

I agree to a point, but... more than one person says "I was raped" or "one of my friends was raped" by right-reverend-so-and-so. those who seem to be the ones labeled vp-worshippers (and I'm not advocating the name-calling here, I'm just stating the facts as I see them) say one of several things: "I never saw it so it didn't happen" or: "he may have, I can't testify about that, but we need to focus on the word he taught!" or: it wasn't really rape, it was for her sexual healing. he believed he was doing the right thing." those who seem to get labeled vp-worshippers who deny either the criminal wrong-doing of vpw OR the importance of the criminal wrong-doing of vpw, whether it is in regards to his sexual coercion/rape of young women, his use of drugs to enforce their cooperation, or his wide-spread theft of other researcher's materials. I can't see any other reason to deny these things unless for some reason vpw must remain spotless in their mind as some sort of idol.

personal responsibility for what exactly? his tone was angry for sure, but I think anyone who claims a woman should be hit for being irritating should be confronted and it would be extremely difficult to do it without anger. why exactly does johniam think it's ok to hit women? does johniam think it's ok for me to punch my husband in the face if he irritates me by talking too much when I'm busy thinking about other things? like the tv show I'm watching?

oh, and I wonder how johniam knows that the woman didn't mind have her hand put on some guy's erection? sometimes people react inappropriately to things like that because they don't want to call attention to themselves, so where a slap or a confrontation would be appropriate, it would bring uncomfortable attention to her so she let it go instead. the only way to know would be to get into her head. if she really didn't care, that makes me wonder about her. was that the corps training, or was she that casual about sex? can't know at this point, but it does strike me as mighty strange. ((((Roy)))) you are a very wonderful and brave person.

yikes, thanks Belle. I've met guys like that, and the real problem in their families was not the woman nagging but the man not participating in the relationship in any real sense. women usually nag because they're left on their own emotionally and the man is not a friend in any sense of the word. I know sometimes the woman is just a b!tch, but men I've known dealing with that don't usually want to hit her. they're usually depressed and frustrated the way women are when the man treats them like an inconvenience or an irritant or dogs them incessantly. I was married to someone who felt like it was his right to clock me when I was irritating. he told everyone I was a nag and a bitch. the real problem was he just wasn't there emotionally, at all. he had a close relationship with the tv and was a nice guy where people could see, but when it came to home and family it was my responsibility to keep it running and if I tried to talk to him about things or get his help, I was just an irritating nag who should be able to handle it on my own, because, omg he worked so hard and he had so much pressure from his boss. what's the point of marriage if that's my role? screw that.

does johniam advocate violence toward women? where's this website of his?

some people hurt others because they like to. maybe vpw and lcm and others like them who still hurt are just lost souls in pain, dunno. maybe they just don't care about other people and want things their way no matter the cost in human life. I don't feel obligated to pray for them. they aren't my responsibility, they aren't my brothers. I don't feel obligated to forgive them if they're maintaining their status quo of evil. but I will speak up against them and their actions and I can be angry if I want. I spent 20 years in twi. I've been out a little over a year. twi and way brain control my life less and less and I feel angry less often (but the depth of anger remains the same, as I know they are still doing to others what they did to me and feeling justified in doing it). I think that's pretty good progress. after all, an accident that lasts a few seconds can require months of recovery. my head-on collision with reality lasted a couple of decades and I've already healed to a great degree. I won't lose the anger and disgust or the ability to empathize with others working through it. if I ever do, I'll know I'm dead.

everyone's experience is different. that's sort of like saying to write about the desert, you should to live in new mexico to get the right point of view.

ARGH! I was on that detail. it stifled practically all my desire to do art. I don't really like doing florals and landscapes and the list of approved subjects for cards was very limited.

twi manufactured a lot and exaggerated a lot. the wow stories we had to write in our reports were elaborated on, added too, and changed so they could be used to recruit more wows. it was sickening. unfortunately I failed to recognize the problem as twi culture and thought it was j0hn r^pp's assistant that was the problem.

I was healed, once. specifically, I simply threw out a question and God answered and it was an issue of an evil spirit, but not possession. I can't document it. I still had work to do physically to correct what was wrong in the first place. it was a very personal experience between me and God, no minister. I did not ever get revelation to heal other people, although I prayed for them and thought I was a horrible sinner because there was never a cookie in the cookie jar. I've had encountered people that I felt God was telling me to be careful of, but never, ever "this person is possessed with blah blah spirit". I gave a foot massage once that helped someone with a back problem. I think that counts for something in the grand scheme of things, although God didn't say "pray" or "cast out". twi's internal witch hunt hurt a lot of people. I was put on the spot by the witch hunters too many times and I wish I'd had the sense to walk away.