potato

sorry Mike, but you're speaking a scriptural commandment as if we're all bound to obey, and I'm sure you've noticed in the 5 years you've been dropping by that not all of us are christian. the debate on whether christians are required to forgive all wrongdoing is probably a doctrinal topic. and I didn't diss speaking in tongues: if it's good for you, fine. I just don't happen to believe that because vpw said it proves something, that it actually does. I'm not taking that shyster's word on anything. and since I've met non-christians who speak in tongues, it again doesn't mean anything to me to say that it's proof of anything. tell you what... you don't judge me on what I vent about, and I won't judge you. you pronounce no point to venting about the way, so maybe there is no point FOR YOU. I pronounce there can be a great benefit to it. simply a difference of opinion, really.

my answer: no one. not doctrinal, but not about the way? maybe this belongs in "open"?

I really resent you guys taking my name in vain!

I finished the book. although my therapist was concerned about me choosing this time to read it, I think it was a very positive experience. I wasn't around when vpw was prez, but the things she described were carried through and affected the entire organization. the methods used on her were also used on me, to the point I also felt trapped and confused. I could very much relate to her inward battle. also, she wraps up the book with some incredibly useful advice for anyone making the choice to get away. choosing a therapist or legal counsel with no knowledge of the cult hive mind can indeed make things so much more difficult. I was ashamed to bring up my cult involvement at first when looking for mental and legal help, but I've learned that I have to make sure the people I hire to help me are able to deal with that part of my reality.

I think this is perhaps what bothers me the most, is that the concept of "forgiveness" has become a religious philosophy with many definitions, rules, and consequences. that's why I went back to the dictionary, and realized that in its simplest and most straightforward form, the choice to not forgive is not harmful. it is not synonymous with seeking revenge.

to be fair, I knew one region coordinator couple who was not like that. they did a lot of things for themselves and for other people, at least when I knew them... nice things, like making breakfast for people for no particular reason. as for the coordinators who were too busy with ministry work to take care of their homes so needed believer "work days", most of their ministry work seemed to involve prying into peoples' lives, confronting and humiliating, and then spin-doctoring once they'd driven out the disobedient.

been thinking about forgiveness, just because people seem to crop up on a regular basis with the commandment to forgive and it's always for our own good, blah blah blah. I looked up "forgive" in the dictionary: 1 a: to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult> b: to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt> 2: to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon <forgive one's enemies> in applying this to twi or to leaders of twi who committed crimes, I have this to say: 1 a: people who've been hurt will feel resentment and may feel that they are owed an apology (claim to requital). actively giving up those feelings do not happen in a vacuum. it takes a lot of processing time to come to terms with how a victim feels after being used and abused. no one has the right to tell them when they should forgive, or give up on the feeling they are owed an apology, or even in the case of a real crime, when they should give up on the hope of justice. 1 b: in a family, it makes sense to grant relief from payment of debt when a family member has a hard time paying, so that family relationships aren't damaged. in some cases it makes good business sense as well. twi may not technically be in debt to any of us, but they did make a promise to steward god's people and did not do that. they didn't pay their debt. personally I still consider them accountable for this, although anyone who wants can forgive that debt. I think in the end, it's actually god's debt alone to forgive. 2: see 1 a. I think it's possible to move on with your life and accept that your claim to requital or an unpaid debt will be ignored by the other party, without letting them off the hook for it: in other words, you don't have to "forgive" to move on, and you don't have to forget, either. I've moved on. twi is no longer part of my life and I'm actively recovering from the damage done during my 2 decade involvement with them. I will never get to a point in my life, however, where twi wasn't part of my past or the harm done by power-hungry leaders never took place. it will always be there. my hope of a better future is not dependent on forgiving them. I consider them accountable for their actions and always will.

if the twi leaders reading here figure out who the girl is and decide to do something about it, it will more than likely be one of those closed-door sessions where she's brow-beaten for shaming "the ministry", or they'll throw her out, which would be the better of the two in my mind if she can get some help. twi won't help her. if she's a bad witness, they'll get rid of her because they don't like having blemishes.

I second that.

I think it's disrespectful for her to bring men over for sex unless you both agreed it was ok before moving in together. I'd also avoid going to any twi functions with her. it will be unpleasant for you because they will pressure you and search for cracks in your faith. they love arguing and being right. it'd be a huge waste of your time, unless the only topic was your roommate bringing men over for sex. yeah, that horribly boring class they put together a few years ago was pretty explicit about no sex outside of the marriage.

now I feel sorry for the people who actually need information on Twi the language who probably get all kinds of twi the cult related results on google.

I got my copy and read about half in one day. I couldn't put it down. I'm hoping to get some reading time this weekend so I can finish it. a lot of things are milling around in my head from what I've read so far, but the most significant is how easily and how deeply organizations like twi can pull in the walking wounded and condition them to be cannon fodder.

no, it's another example of a cost that should have been counted as a business expense and paid for by twi, along with the cost of stamps and money orders.

oh hey you people who served as WOWs! don't forget where the money for class refreshments came from. I don't know if in the earlier days WOWs got any help from local believers, but when I was a WOW we basically had no contact, which meant as well as paying our bills, we were on our own for financing outreach and classes. we absorbed ALL twi business expenses related to their outreach program.

welcome, I hope you find this place healing, as I have. it's done me a world of good to talk about what I went through without being condemned for focusing on the "negatives". one thing you might want to keep in mind is that chiding people to live by a rule of twi or even one that you believe is a standard christian rule of conduct isn't going to help many people. for instance: I don't believe those who worked destruction are my brothers and sisters. they just happened to be in the same screwed up organization I was in and had power to hurt. you can believe what you like, just don't assume that I must believe as you do because I took the same classes you did. another for instance: speaking in tongues doesn't prove anything. vpw said it did, but so what? we were told to keep quiet and be good followers, to the point that some of us nearly lost ourselves. people died and will never get to read the words shared here. I'm not going to live the life of ephesians because that's not the life I choose. I have been angry. I have been healed. I still get angry. I will continue to heal. I will always be disgusted by the machinations of the twisted men who built twi. I don't think I need to be healed from that. it's not my responsibility to forgive those who so selfishly crushed my soul. if they want it, they can come ask me any time they want and will find that in the face of true remorse and change, I'm an extremely forgiving person. otherwise, they're accountable to whatever god they worship and while I remember less and feel less sadness, I do not forget.

I realized the damage done by this policy as I was leaving twi. as a follower of twi, you're expected to rely on your fellowship. if you can't get what you need there (counseling etc.) you're to go up the tree. too many families were subjected to counseling sessions and advice from untrained and even self-serving leaders. my region coordinator broke the law by failing to report child abuse. he gave me very bad advice. fellowship coordinators gave their opinion on how I should live my life according to what was actually how they liked to live theirs. my ex-husband was directed to give me orders to do things or not do things. a fellowship coordinator also told me to break the law in a family court dispute. other stories around here range into leadership telling people to beat their children, leadership lying about people to justify M&A, leadership having affairs with members of the flock. yes, the corps were good at selling whatever lie twi told them to, and if they turned their brains off (as I saw quite a lot of them do), that's all they ended up being able to do. I think corps training sucks the heart out of people.

yeah, the only way to really help people while working within the twi structure was to knowingly rebel against their policies. the only way to make your twig truly self-supporting was to knowingly rebel against twi's policies on handling ABS. so... either twi's policies are just downright "off the word" or the people who did things their own way were "off the word". and WD, defending twi's policies by telling people they were optional is pretty naive. yeah, some people did it and got away with it for a while, but the witch hunts pretty much wiped them all out. and, if you did it that way, you had to keep it a secret or some well-meaning person in your twig might spill the beans during one of the interrogations that leadership liked to conduct. and the people are right, it's not the actual cost of the stamps, envelopes, and money orders. it's the fact that twi is so goddam greedy that they wouldn't absorb those costs as a cost of doing business... because bottom line, they are a business.

as soon as those people were found out, they were held up as examples of ungodliness and spoken about in the vilest of terms, and not just for withholding money. entire catalogs of sin were opened up. I know that sins were at times made up about people to explain their hard-heartedness, but I also know that lockbox confessions were aired in special meetings to show how people got pulled down so far that they would cheat "the ministry" and "stop the word from moving" by deciding to operate as a welfare agency.

I went and read it just now... don't be sorry excie!

maybe I was being the crab? I've had insomnia lately and it makes me dim. don't be sorry excie. I agree with you, reading about the way is worth about 39 cents but only if they're paying me! I really did get enough of reading about the way in the way rag (I really want to make a menstrual joke there). and yes I did find out how to get the book, I just need to write a check to the author and mail it!

I was afraid to leave because outside the walls of zion was a wasteland, full of ravenously devilish unbelievers and I was afraid that my children would be taken from me. I believed there was nowhere else to go, that every church was unsafe, that no unbeliever could be a friend. what I found when I got brave enough to leave was that although it was uncomfortable, people outside tended to be more decent than people inside because they had no incentive to micromanage my life, and that I don't really need to belong to anything. I decided not to go to a church of any kind until I could sort out what I believe, and now I don't feel the need to go at all. there may be plenty of good places to go, but it was very nice finding that "having no where else to go" was not the horrible thing twi made it out to be!

I heard stories of people who put cash in the horn getting reamed from higher up the food chain for not ABS'ing, so I always paid my membership dues by check.

I'm not reading about the way, excie. I'm reading about people. I still have things to deal with.

that's a good thing, excie!