potato

yes, with that stare, and something along the lines of "as close as I'm standing to you".

has anyone transcribed the video class?

yeah, exactly. I seem to remember it, too. eventually I'll dig out all my books and old syllabi and be able to look things like this up. could it be in the intro to one of the class books? is the cassette class identical to the film (later video) class? did vpw maybe mention it during another class that was still making the rounds in the late 80's/90's?

Mrs. Wierwille didn't write that book on her own, so any omission or inaccuracy was officially approved by TWI. I have a hard time believing that no one had access to the correct information or that everyone in the "ministry" simply forgot about the 1965 teaching. I know a lot of them were dead by the time Mrs. W published, but could there seriously be a way that that could just accidentally just slip by? or is it possible that there was an agenda being served?

I'm very convinced it was not a hallucination. interesting thing about people with narcissistic or borderline personality disorder is that they're so easily able to rewrite history for themselves and everyone else that he may actually have believed it happened even though he may have made it up decades later. in other words, the memory didn't exist until he needed it to, and once he used it and it worked, it became so firmly entrenched in his mind that he could have passed a lie detector test because to him it actually happened, even if he also had a separate and distinct memory that it did not. as long as the true memory was repressed, snow on the gas pumps miraculously happened, but only as a memory. not a hallucination.

ah! I vote for 5 :)

4 or 5 what? shots of whiskey, hits off the pipe, what?

after reading this, I'm so glad I got kicked out of the corps. I was dreading LEAD anyway, now I feel I was spared more than I realized at the time.

I guess I'm in a pretty good position to assess the validity of the heart of the incident as well, since I also fall into that category. I also have the added experience of having 2 family members who are pathological liars and having studied narcissistic personality disorder the past couple of years. that awareness coupled with the consistent testimony of more than a handful of witnesses that directly contradicts vpw's testimony on numerous topics and the evidence of plagiarism of his so-called revelations lead me to an entirely different conclusion. the reported promise of God and accompanying snowstorm should not be assessed from inside a sterile vacuum, but should rather be assessed in the greater context of a lifetime of self-serving narcissistic grandiosity.

I found my believing in 5 packets of sugar per cup.

this thread started when I was very much IN twi. after reading it, I have several things on my mind: for an organization that obsessively rejected traditional symbolism, they gave what seemed to be at least equal time in obsessively constructing their own set of symbols and aesthetic rules. the meanings of colors and numbers ruled the backdrop of every production, class, branch and limb meeting I was ever involved with, to a degree that I would consider religious by twi's own definition of religion. even the number of each kind of flower in the arrangements at the podium had spiritual significance, for the love of pete. now, on to the cross... the cross is an ancient archetype that symbolizes different things depending on culture and religion. because the cross is an archetype, I don't think of it as an exclusively christian symbol. because it's an archetype, it has subconscious appeal that has nothing to do with religion. I learned about the cross symbol before I ever heard of twi. the cross is always a stylized symbol for something, and if christians want to use it as a symbol for the cross christ bore, it's no one's business to judge them. the fact that it's a stylized symbol explains the variations, including some of the very ornate variations in jewelry and art. I never felt comfortable with twi's rabid rejection of the cross because it was "a symbol of death" even though, as a good little minion, I carried out their orders to talk people out of wearing them.

no one blames the volunteers! after all, you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. low-grade coffea canephora stewed in giant industrial urns will just never, ever taste good and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

I went through post-divorce custody issues. I found a lawyer familiar with domestic abuse and with an awareness of cultish influence, and he had the court order a parenting evaluation by a professional with experience in post-cult family issues. I wish I'd done it sooner, but I needed some recovery myself before I recognized how damaging twi had been to my marriage and kids. having 2 lawyers duke it out can be really expensive. asking for an evaluation to determine if and how much contact there should and who should have custody can be is risky if evaluator isn't familiar with narcissism or PTSD because they can make recommendations to the court that aren't really in the best interests of the child if they don't realize how damaging the parental relationship is, but it's definitely something I'd look into.

that's what we do, too. my daughter totally loves the game of santa, and I even sign our presents "from santa". my one santa rule was that my kids were not to tell other kids that santa doesn't exist if the kid believes he's real, because that's their parents' job.

I like that take on it, Mark. seriously, who cares what customs or beliefs anyone else chooses to observe at their midwinter festival? I teach my kids that pretty much every culture has a feast or observance near the solstice because for hunter/gatherer and farming societies, it's the most depressing time of the year and the fact that the days are starting to get longer is a reason to celebrate, no matter what the celebration is called or what else is included in the observances (as long as they are positive). my daughter has been learning about other cultural and religious observances and is very fascinated by all of them. our personal observances revolve around celebrating family. some people observe the birth of Christ. I think we can all co-exist without always pointing fingers that it's wrong to celebrate what other people choose to. as far as jesus being the "reason for the season", I get annoyed when people get preachy about it since the season existed long before midwinter festival, but anyone can make it their own reason if they like. something funny and kind of OT... when I was a WOW in the bible belt, one of those "jesus is the reason for the season" people actually told me, after I stated that I would never lie to my kids about santa because of how devastated I was when I found out my mother had been lying to me, that it is CHILD ABUSE to prevent your kids from believing in santa! and she was serious. I could barely stop laughing, but did manage to say that I wondered how children had survived for so many thousands of years before he became part of popular western culture?

actually it does, and A LOT. openly acknowledging that the things some people did to us and the policies of twi were/are WRONG changed a lot of things for me. for one thing, it freed me from them. it freed me from the insidious seed of guilt they'd planted about things like the lockbox, like never making their stupid ministry look bad, like obeying my husband even when he's wrong or leadership even when they were wrong. it may come across as complaining and bitterness to advocates of "forgive and forget", but it really isn't. it's just me being guilt-free and open about the experiences of 2 decades of my life and how I feel about the things that were done to me and about how I feel about the people who did them and how I feel about the organization that systemized abuse as a way to control even what we thought about.

wow Mark, that was amazing! I just read part out loud and it is indeed seussian in a fantastic way!

and every time we were told to flip a switch, we did it because it wasn't so much more than we'd already suffered or given up or inflicted on others, including spouses, children, friends, and fellow twiggies. eventually you can be convinced that 2+2=5.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/12/19/milgr...ence/index.html

geisha, I agree with you. I'd also like to point out to Pond that I choose not to forgive the evil upper echelon of twi, I'm not a bitter person although at times I get angry, and that I can make a difference in the world that Jesus can't, even though the world is, as you say, "broken".

John and Yoko, 1971. "So this is Christmas And what have you done? Another year over And a new one just begun."

aw, I wished I'd got one so I could make a voodoo doll out of it!

I agree with you there, Linda. it would be a waste of time and thought. I just don't think forgiving them is necessary for me to be able to move on. to me, that's just religious semantics, and if it works for someone, it's great. my hubby and I discuss this one all the time. he's pro-forgiveness for personal growth, my position is it's a word game :)

Mike, you're a good guy. thanks for sharing your story. I rejoice with you that you've found freedom! thanks for understanding the message. one of the things I love about GS is that we can disagree and discuss. in my quest for healing from waybrain, it's done wonders for my critical thinking skills :) in some ways this is like a reunion of war vets. individual experiences may differ, but we all shared involvement in a common horror.

Linda, it seems a bit like a chicken and egg problem... which comes first, processing the anger, bitterness and hurt feelings, or the "forgiving"? does "forgiving" make the bad feelings go away? or does dealing with the hurt bring you to a point of "forgiveness"? I have to admit, the symantic gymnastics that religious philosophers go through over the concept of forgiveness often seem designed to make people feel guilty who decide not to be held captive to the bondage of being required to "forgive" a wrong-doer. those who hurt DON'T have power over me anymore. now it's MY choice. I no longer HAVE to forgive them.