potato

I hope you have the best success for the sake of your kids! thanks for the update.

I think the veracity of your claim hinges on the definition of "choose".

do we think humpty was an egg for the same reason we think jesus was a white guy with blue eyes? illustrated children's books?

are you sure you were with Howard every second of his life so that you can say with accuracy and conviction that he NEVER said that?

signs of a liar: I saw a lot of these in vpw's videos, and even more so in lcm's.

"If someone comes into the ministry, we don’t drop them, we stick with them. We never kick anyone out."

wow, it didn't take long for the straw man to appear. those two bits of wisdom were repeated ad nauseum by vpw, in as many different grammatical constructs as you can imagine. just because the pfal syllabus has them down one way (the post-class clean-up version) doesn't meant that's the way he always said it.

LOL! yes!

when I look at ebay (and I check regularly), I do not see a high demand for the books. in fact, most auctions for the more common materials end with no bids. only unusual items not available from twi's bookstore seem to get any bids at all. on more than one occasion, AC grads and corps were directed to buy twi materials if they were spotted for sale to the general public, because no one outside the fold should have access to them. I personally know of more than a few people who had stockpiled twi books. it's possible (I'd say probable, actually) that all the materials being sold are being purchased by innies or by people in off-shoots hoping to build up their libraries. I can also see cult researchers being interested in the less common materials. that does not equate to the claim of "thriving" for vpw's writings. I also know there is zero interest in twi books in the used bookstores in my area. and just because there's a black-market CD doesn't mean the same people who buy that won't buy a hard-bound book if presented the chance. some people just like books. the one thing I haven't checked yet that would be a good indicator of how vpw's writings might be "thriving" is the academics database, to see if anyone is citing his writings and how they're being referenced. the next time I get access, I'll do that because it would be interesting information. for now, I don't see a good case for "thriving" and I do see a case of "fading away" although he hasn't quite made it to "obscurity". he simply doesn't have the following he once did.

I've found discussion about what vpw said and what was meant to be really rare around here, actually. usually it's "what he said" and "what he did" or "what he siad to the public" and "what he said to a few special people". THRIVE???? LOLOL! that's a word I wouldn't have chosen to describe the success of vpw's writings. they're fading away, not thriving.

why assume I'm being emotional when I deduce he must have been constantly out of fellowship to live the lifestyle he did? what does the supposed "good" have to do with his state of fellowship? I've seen real @$$holes do seemingly nice things for people, but there were almost always strings attached. doesn't mean they were in fellowship at all when they were doing "good". and if the good you're talking about is writing all those books... well then. our definitions of good differ.

my mind boggles a bit at the idea that it took so long for a girl like Mary to come along so the messiah could be born, then that boy had to be pure enough to take on his job... just imagine what a disaster it would have been if he'd decided to become a drunkard and rapist like vpw... but god could somehow settle the responsibility of preserving his "word" on a man like vpw... and now apparently not just the preservation of his "word" since it was catestrophically lost, but the responsibility for receiving what is now actually new revelation that would get us back to the "original"... and vpw being constantly out of fellowship while drinking, bullying, preying on innocent girls and living a lavish lifestyle didn't at all stand in his way of carrying out this awesome responsibility.

WW: Did vpw claim the Scriptures were "catastrophically lost"? Mike: Yes, he implied it, and my use of that word fits if it's true what he said about the originals being lost. WW: Did he say that what's in the originals is "ANYBODY'S GUESS"? Mike: I use my own words at times to give the gist of the words he used. I stand by them. Mike: VPW implied we could get back to the originals if we stuck with his 1942 guidance. this seems to go beyond Mike's personal opinion and into a critical analysis of what vpw meant when he said certain things... things that Mike can't personally know because he didn't discuss them with vpw. Mike is implying that the only way to get back to the "original meaning" is by accepting that vpw's accounts of the alleged revelation and snowstorm in 1942 are true, and that there is no other way to get to the heart of god. Mike, sounds to me like you're claiming to be a prophet, since you claim to have special insight into what vpw meant.

google adwords contextual ad placement is an amazing beast. I have to admit to deliberately placing words in forums sometimes just to see if I can change the ads that pop up. like if we started talking about the bagpipe player being scottish, and all the things scottish people do, like smoke pipes, drink scotch, play golf and wear kilts, what would the ads do? p.s. I apologize to any scottish people who may be present for so narrowly generalizing.

god that sounds disgusting! we mixed used grounds when I was growing up because we were so poor, but never would have put salt in the coffee. GROSS. I guess by the time I moved anywhere where twi peeps were doing that, I'd realized it's not a good idea to drink the coffee. thank god I don't have to rely on "believing" to get a decent cup of coffee these days. since I quit tithing to that devilish group, it's amazing how many things I can afford.

salt in coffee? wtf?

I see four ads, three for bagpipes and one from the way expose by jl. there were all kinds of music and theatre things going on at the family tables when I first went to RoA, but lcm destroyed all of that within a few years.

the most significant things I've learned are how to accept people as they are, that real communication is the key to real relationships, and that I don't have to look perfect all the time to avoid getting reamed (it's ok for me to tell a busybody "up yours" because I'm NOT out of fellowship!).

for years before and after my DOE (date of escape) I was embarrassed about my association so didn't talk about it. after my DOE, I also developed the typical shame victims feel over being victimized, so didn't talk about it. after working with my therapist for a while, I felt brave enough to share it with a couple of friends. I actually got respect from them for being strong enough to live through what I did and finally get out. now it's at the point where I don't care too much, I've told some people for one reason or another and it's no big deal. sometimes they're interested in finding out what it's like to live in a cult and how I got in. it's not something I worry about anymore, although "what will people think" was a cause of discomfort for a long time.

I don't know why you chose to highlight "sat through it" and ignore that I said I studied PFAL. I studied it. I own a box of books that are dog-earred, and spiral notebooks full of study notes. so what? the end product you speak of stinks even more than PFAL the film class because it has layers of back-pedaling and "meat" that just obfuscate the truth.

if/then statements are logic statements. you made several that as an argument concluded that I've made inferior choices of focus. I do know what I reject. I studied PFAL for years, sat through it more times than I can count, and have even looked at some of the material that vpw stole to remodel into PFAL. it's perfectly valid to wholesale reject PFAL and examine my beliefs from a completely different angle. I might even discover some similar points that vpw found (possibly from the same sources) and end up believing some of the things vpw taught without being under any obligation to credit him, since the ideas didn't originate with him. I simply choose not to drink water from a bitter spring.

I dunno, Raf. they're cheaper than a drink at the comedy lounge downtown, so it seems like a good deal to me.

oh, thanks for the laugh! I love your fallacious arguments. they're priceless!

so when you study, you've in essence put another layer of abstraction on top of the english versions because you choose to believe that vpw had insight no other human has since the apostle Paul, and that god spoke to him and made him see a snowstorm, even though there's no corroborating evidence. so, even though vpw plagiarized, lied, raped, and used the humble to elevate himself, you judge him a worthy scholar, you judge him trustworthy, and now study god's "word" with a vpw filter. I feel sorry for you.

this must be the phrase I'm remembering. I remembered he somehow included the listener, I guess as some kind of device to make it seem more real. I just don't remember listening to the tape, though I did listen to quite a few vpw tapes early on.