Dartanian3m

Oakspear Why would you make a remark like that? There is none perfect except Jesus...you know that better than anyone here. I don't recall JAL telling me or you how to run our lives....he had/has the love to stand up and proclaim what he knows to be the truth regardless of his shortcomings and the dead corpse we all carry around with us (Romans...I find then a law...the things I would not ..those I do...and the things I would those I do not.....) Remember those words at all? Does the fact that I or you or JAL falls short in any area of our life preclude us from voicing what we believe to be the truth of God's Word? And when the adversary beats us or one of our brothers or sisters in any area of life should we as a body find some comfort in "karmic justice"? I really wish you could hear what I am saying here....not because I am better than you...etc etc etc

JAL SAID "If you are one of those ex-Way folks still sitting on the sidelines taking potshots at me and CES http://www.CESonline.org without any current firsthand knowledge of my heart and life or our ministry, bless you." Now why would I or anyone else take offense to that statement unless the shoe fitted? .....hmmmmmmm.....a simple question that I am sure someone wearing the shoe will come up with a thoroughly logical rationale to twist to suit their purposes and use to tear apart all that stand in the way of their stronghold

The whole issue of divorce has been such ball and chain around my neck for so long that I can no longer bear the weight of it. To "live" with someone who brings out the worst in you and seems to enjoying doing so is tormenting beyond words...especially when children are used both as swords and shields in a joist to justify one's actions and "the Word of God" is used as a fiery dart to render one guilty and justify oneself as innocent. Who could ever imagine such things- that one would only expect to be seen in horror movies. Lives manipulated, tormented, and forever scarred, hearts seared of all feeling, a life without hope of a happier day. And so I have endured refusing to admit defeat and failure before an adversary that mocks me as the life is drained from me day by day. As I watch my children become victims to a curse unimaginable. And so I leave in just 2 weeks hence- 2000 miles from my children with no certainty what the future will bring for me or for them. But with a prayer of peace and healing for all concerned. How can a father leave his children? How can he stay? watching them being sacrificed day by day...their hopes and dreams being stolen by 2 so selfish and cruel people....their mom and dad.

Paw...here is a quote that my dad gave me when I was quite young...it has always held a special place in my heart.... A Father's Prayer by General Douglas MacArthur Build me a son, O Lord, who will be strong enough to know when he is weak, and brave enough to face himself when he is afraid; one who will be proud and unbending in honest defeat, and humble and gentle in victory. Build me a son whose wishbone will not be where his backbone should be; a son who will know Thee and that to know himself is the foundation stone of knowledge. Lead him, I pray, not in the path of ease and comfort, but under the stress and spur of difficulties and challenge. Here let him learn to stand up in the storm; here let him learn compassion for those who fail. Build me a son whose heart will be clean, whose goal will be high; a son who will master himself before he seeks to master other men; one who will learn to laugh, yet never forget how to weep; one who will reach into the future, yet never forget the past. And after all these things are his, add, I pray, enough of a sense of humor, so that he may always be serious, yet never take himself too seriously. Give him humility, so that he may always remember the simplicity of greatness, the open mind of true wisdom, the meekness of true strength. Then I, his father, will dare to whisper, "I have not lived in vain".

to live in a world surrounded by tens and thousands and millions of souls and to be trully known and to trully know not one heart intimately and completely....the song of so many remains the same

dang catsup how come I didnt notice that your panties were all twisted and bunched up???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rascal...I will forgive you for your unforgiving heart as soon as you say 7 our fathers and 5 holy marys... --> :)-->

Greetings Research Geek! What a breathe of fresh air you are!!! Regardless of the posts that follow and the rationals that attempt to justify their positions or lay credence to their excuses...TRULLY your heart is pure and "simple" ...and in this simplistic purity....(in the midst, for example, of some who advertise unsolicited and unrealated posts in a thread and take pride in being responsible for TWI losing $50K in abundant sharing)....lies the healing that we all need to humbly acknowledge as we look to ourselves and what God has so willingly and unselfishly forgiven us for. Thank you Research Geek for sharing your pure heart with us.

I must say that I find this whole post to be outrageous and really dreadging for dirt in an unholy way. Trying to discredit a newsletter that the youth of CES or any other organization put together just because you have nothing more profitable to do is repugnant to say the least. Was there nothing of the content contraversial so the logo becomes the focus of attention?Excuse me while i grab my vomit bag.

Thanks for posting this pjroberge I wish I would have seen this back in 1987 so that much of the confusion I experienced caused by unanswered questions could have been avoided or at least better understood.

Initially I tried to understand your post Cynic but perhaps its best I don't afterall.

Thank you Shazdancer for sharing your experience with JAL with us. Thank you JAL for never claiming to be perfect but for having the strength of mind and heart and the love to share your understanding and experience of God's heart.

Mike don't slap yourself on the back too hard please...what was the context of expounding upon your meaning of true love... the paragraph preceding it sets the stage... YOU SAID "I’ve watched this whole JAL single-event, drive-by-posting with his emissary advance man careful testing the water temperature and tasting the food for him weeks ahead of time. I’ve seen how he is simply culling,via his ground rules, through all the moaners and groaners for few potential back-slappers who might still dig his style or Bible tid-bits. He can slap their backs and they can slap his, and simply ignore those with no such predisposition." Then you said.... "No, Dart, Jesus went down into the valley of human need and dared his adversaries to their faces so well, handled their debate challenges so well, that their only recourse was violence, and even that had to be under the cover of darkness. He went to the people who were hurting and put up with a lot of their bs, as well as their moaning and groaning and unbelief because he loved them. His mission was the impossible, and he made it possible for those with the REAL Christ in them to do it too." A beautiful selection of words eliquently put in a backdrop to attack the creditabilty of 2 men ..nothing more or nothing less... yes those were fine words taken by themselves- and are likened to diamonds- BUT in the context that you set them they stand as a setting of "fine" LEAD...not words to inspire me but words to promote your condemnation ...HOW DARE YOU ASSUME TO KNOW THE HEARTS AND INTENTS OF JEFF AND JAL... be honest with yourself Mike...I wish you no illwill...

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MIKE an answer to your post with responses in parenthesis Dart, You wrote: “Jesus Christ never rolled in the quicksand with those who were struggling to get out …” I think you’re only looking at a few aspects of Jesus’ pre-Calvary ministry. On the cross he “hung out” with 3 antagonistic criminals who “cast the same in his teeth.” Hours later Jesus not only rolled in the quicksand, he rolled in the grave with those who couldn’t even struggle any more. (and what of offering ourselves as living sacifices Mike or should we allow ourselves to be pulled into other peoples struggles so that we cant be there with our feet on solid ground) I’d like to see John Lynn answer Oakspear’s question. Then I’d like to see him tell us,if VPW should be so approving of his work, how he snubbed ,and continues to snub, Dr’s last teaching and his final instructions to master PFAL, both in 1985 and then again in 1998 when I brought it to his attention. I’d like to see him answer why he snubbed, and continues to snub, Dr’s 1979 instruction to all Advanced Class grads to master RHST which I’ve posted on numerous occasions here.(((HELLO MIKE!!!!!!! IS VPW GOD ALMIGHTY??????)(HE IS TO YOU...that in my opinion is a BIG problem) I’d like to ask him how many other instructions he ignored from Dr back in the good old days when he was supposed to be an assistant of Dr’s in Dr’s ministry to us. Did he use Dr’s extreme popularity among many grads back then to develop his own following, just as he appealed to the very few mild admirer’s of vpw left here on this board? (You really have issues with people who don't obey the word of VPW ....don't you MIKE) I don’t think he (JAL) nor any of the other derelict top leadership have ever developed the spiritual balls to really face a single adversary who was amply equipped with word skills, let alone a whole community of them like here. Most top leadership left the debate-rich witnessing field to us lower peons in the early 70’s, and either lost or never developed the ability to sustain a friendly debate. For decades all their disagreements with grad underlings ended very early with psychological word-trickery or body language like grimacing, growling, or clenched fists.(They face the adversary every day of their lives Mike and they fight to make a difference...what about you...can you say the same...you be the judge) Leader types like him are too afraid to publicly debate lest this great weakness of theirs be exposed, leaving them with potentially less gainful employment. (DEBATE? is that why JAL and others have come here??? to debate....maybe you come here for such but don't expect others to be at your level...) I’ve watched this whole JAL single-event, drive-by-posting with his emissary advance man careful testing the water temperature and tasting the food for him weeks ahead of time. I’ve seen how he is simply culling,via his ground rules, through all the moaners and groaners for few potential back-slappers who might still dig his style or Bible tid-bits. He can slap their backs and they can slap his, and simply ignore those with no such predisposition. No, Dart, Jesus went down into the valley of human need and dared his adversaries to their faces so well, handled their debate challenges so well, that their only recourse was violence, and even that had to be under the cover of darkness. He went to the people who were hurting and put up with a lot of their bs, as well as their moaning and groaning and unbelief because he loved them. His mission was the impossible, and he made it possible for those with the REAL Christ in them to do it too. (the real Christ Mike???? Its people who use the Word to prove their point that really offend me Mike...consider me offended Mike...a little more heart and a little less scriptural reference would serve us all better)(hearts are not healed by debate they are healed by understanding, gentleness, forgiveness, and compassion, and the knowledge that there is only ONE enemy and JAL isnt him)