Linda Z

Outin88: It's not a big deal, and I wasn't trying to make it one. honest. I was just pointing out a simple fact. If my delivery of said fact sounded snippy in any way, I apologize. That wasn't my intent. Linda

WordWolf: I get what you're saying. As I said, I wasn't using the little snippet above to imply BGL plagiarized or that VPW didn't. The latter has become obvious to me. Nevertheless, I think it is a good idea to stick to the facts (like Raf is doing by comparing various passages of VPW's with those of other writers). Linda Z

"In fact all the character names such as Maggie Muggins were 'borrowed' from Leonards class." Really? "'Maggie Muggins' was the creation of Fredericton-born teacher, writer and storyteller Mary Grannan. In the 1940s, Maggie's imaginary adventures were featured in the popular radio series 'Maggie Muggins.'" (Copyright 2002 Canadian Broadcasting Co.) I'm not saying or implying that this means BG Leonard plagiarized; nor am I claiming that VPW didn't plagiarize. I'm just pointing out a little fact that shows how sorting out all this plagiarizing stuff isn't as simple as it appears at face value. Linda Z

Thanks back at ya, Goey. :)--> Linda

Speaking of BG Leonard's class, I had a question earlier that apparently got lost in all the yelling. And since several people have taken his class, I think someone might have the answer. How much did he charge (and how much do his successors charge) for his class? I think that's a fair question. Anyone want to answer? I went to the Web site but couldn't find how much it costs. Now, I can only hope that some of you who think I'm one of them pesky "Wierwille apologists" when I don't squeal with delight and clap my hands when I hear stuff like "he was sent by the devil" or was a "child of the devil" might get where I'm coming from if I try to explain myself in a new way. I have my doubts, but here goes: I have not hooked up with CFF, though I know many of them to be wonderful people, because of their dogged adherence to how things were done in twi and by VPW. Believe it or not, there are many things that were taught in PFAL that I never believed, and the list has grown some since I left. Some things I still hold true. It really has nothing to do with where I heard them. I also never hooked up with CES because I believe it was founded on pointing fingers at others' sins when some of the pointers were pretty robust sinners too. In other words, I'm my own person, with my own mind. I don't want/need another ministry to follow, and I wasn't a very obedient follower the first time around, so why should I? If I raise a flag of caution about jumping on BG Leonard's bandwagon, or anyone else's, it's not because I'm defending Victor Paul Wierwille or trying to justify/excuse anything he did wrong in his life. But I feel my point about bandwagons (though I didn't use that word, that WAS my point) was lost in the knee-jerk reaction to what I said. The fact that I don't speculate about VPW's eternal destination, that I have not grown to hate him, and that I question whether anyone is qualified to say that he was a counterfeit sent by the devil does not automatically mean I'm an idiot wearing blinders. Just because I choose not to talk at length about the wrongs of others doesn't mean I am a "shallow person" (thanks, though, Dot, for your expert assessment of me) or blind or stupid or in denial or any of the other accusations that seem to get thrown around when anyone has a different viewpoint than "it was all evil always." I also (in case anyone gives a dammmm about what I really think rather than what you think I think), strongly take issue with Oldiesman's renewed cavalier attitude toward those who have been used and abused. I thought you were past this. What gives? And Kit, yes, I'd have been angry too if anyone had stolen my Bible. But that little sweet old man turned lemons into lemonade by the purity of his heart. Period. That was my point in telling that story. That dear old man could have stood in church and ranted and raved and cursed the SOB who stole his Bible every Sunday and Wednesday for the next 10 years. But he chose instead to hope the person might get saved. I call that a pure heart of forgiveness. (And before anyone pounces on me for that, here's my forgiveness disclaimer: I figure if I forgive someone, that doesn't let him off God's hook; it just frees my heart for some more enjoyable and useful emotions than hate. I try to keep my own sins to a minimum and let God sort out everyone else's.) So anyhow, I was trying to provoke some thought and insert some objectivity. I must not express myself well, because apparently only a handful got it. Oh well, *shrug*, I knew what I meant. Linda Z

((((exc))) I love you, too.

I'm sorry, dear Excathie, if you've somehow interpreted what I've said as any kind of excusing or ignoring the wrong that was done to you or anyone else. That wasn't my purpose at all. Nothing I said was intended to defend or explain away anything VPW did wrong. Goey and Dot: Of course we're all free to have our opinions. But when I see someone stating as fact something that there's no way to know, I'm just as free to state my opinion about that, am I not? It's one thing to say "VPW was a bad guy. I can tell from his fruit." That's something that can be known for sure. It's totally different to say, "VPW was the counterfeit sent to make sure those that were looking were rendered impotent shortly after finding Christ." That wasn't stated as an opinion ("I think he was the counterfeit...."); it was stated as a fact ("He was the counterfeit...."). For one thing, many of us found Christ way before we ever heard of VPW or TWI, and no, not everyone was rendered impotent. I know for a fact many, many people who were not. I've said repeatedly that's because of the greatness of God, because He can perform wondrous things in spite of what men do. His hands are not tied. It was possible to know God and His Son despite anything that was wrong with twi. Linda

Mike, year2027, and Raf, thanks. Imablvr, I used to think I didn't mind paying for a Bible class, but my thinking on that has changed. I used to question it sometimes, but then I fell back into line and justified it because I bought into the "Students won't be committed to finishing PFAL if it doesn't cost them something" rap. I have no problem with ministries selling tapes or books for what they cost to produce. I do have a problem with them profiting from them. If you want to be an author, fine, be an author. If you want to make money on tapes, then get a band together. But if you want to be a minister, then minister. That's my philosophy today, anyway. It's changed before and it could change again. :)--> Sorry for the derail. I think I took a wrong turn at the "What CG charges to run his class" thread! Linda Z

Dot, thanks for the "sweet heart" compliment, but I think you're missing my point. First, the man didn't get robbed. The point was his attitude and reaction, not the woulda coulda shouldas. Second, I want to respond to a couple things you said: 1. "VPW stole the man's lifetime work, then started a ministry to abuse people. So, we got saved and were immediately escourted in to depravity, abuse and oppression." I already said that VPW shouldn't have plagiarized in one of my earlier posts in this thread. But I have a few problems with the rest of this. For instance: A. You don't know that VPW's purpose for starting a ministry was "to abuse people." No one except God knows what his heart and intent were when he started out. We can criticize what we observed and knew about him, but I think to state your opinion about his purpose as fact is presuming to know what only God can know. B. The vast majority of us were certainly not "immediately escorted into depravity, abuse and oppression." Immediately? All of us? That's simply not true. If only one person was abused (and I certainly know some were), that was way too many, but why exaggerate this? Your words would have much more credibility if you just stuck to the facts. 2. "VPW was the counterfiet sent to make sure those that were looking were rendered impotent shortly after finding Christ." Now this is just out-and-out melodrama. Are you trying to say you know that the Devil sent VPW and you even know why?? Sheesh, Dot. I really avoided spiritualizing in twi. I don't get why you want to do it now. I knew many, many people whose lives were not rendered impotent by their involvement in twi but were improved. I've said this over and over: God's hands were not tied by VPW or anyone else. You give the Devil too much credit, IMO. Linda Z [This message was edited by Linda Z on November 09, 2003 at 8:40.]

Before I went to my first twi fellowship I went for a while to a little church that had a lot of very sweet, loving people in its congregation (despite an obnoxious, hellfire-preaching minister). One day this little old man (he looked about 95) stood up to share something during the Wed. night prayer fellowship. He said, "I left my Bible on the front seat of my car while I ran an errand, and someone stole it. They shouldn't have stolen it, but I'm glad they did. I hope they read it and get saved." That's how I feel about the VPW plagiarism stuff. He shouldn't have done it, definitely, but if those he stole from were so sure of the deliverance in their messages, I think they should have been happy to have it spread further. To me it's sorta like that "I praise God whether Christ be preached in sincerity or out of contention" verse. Just a thought. Linda

I don't doubt that BG Leonard was a swell guy, but let me ask this: How much were his classes? Did I read right earlier that they were $150 per and that there were about 30 of them? If that's the case, I'd say VP copied more from him than material for his books and classes. I think it was wrong for VPW to charge money for PFAL (they should have let people donate if they wanted to--really donate, not be forced to pay for a class and call it a donation), and, I think it also was wrong for BG Leonard. I've no reason to doubt that BG Leonard was sincere, but I believe if someone has a genuine ministry, he or she doesn't have to charge for ministering and shouldn't. Did George Mueller charge the orphans for the food he gave them? Why should anyone charge, then, for the "bread of life"? Linda Z PS. I have a pretty laissez faire attitude toward the offshoots, but those that are carrying on the twi tradition of taping class after class and charging money for them and expecting people to spend half their lives sitting on their a$$es staring at a tv screen are missing the boat. If ya ask me. the sponteneity of really walking with God and serving people where they live instead of expecting them to come to you is a whole lot more exciting!

Kit said, "IMHO halo-witness is what a Christian lives every day, always. It's what we are." I agree totally, Kit. Our day-to-day lives are the witness, not some trumped-up activity like cruising the mall. :)--> "p.s. I always loved getting those tracts. I always loved seeing the hope of them. " You must have always looked as sweet as you are. I always got the ones that said I was going to hell. LOL Linda Z

Cherished Child: Yep, RFR has an image to protect. I'm sure she wants all the remaining Wayfers, who probably haven't had the "privilege" of being around her to learn what she's really like, to buy her syrupy sweet demeanor. A lady doesn't muss her skirt or dirty her hands, don't you know? That's what (yes)men are for. Linda Z

From that site: "This Halloween, what you as a Christian need to do is HalloWitness." Oh good grief. I understand if parents don't want their kids to dress as evil creatures...but give out religious tracts for treats to little kids??? I remember the zealots who used to leave me those instead of a tip when I was busting my butt as a waitress on the WOW field. And the sad part is, I'm sure they thought they were doing me a huge favor. Linda Z

I smell smoke. I think it's coming from the serious backpedaling going on in that letter. The other smell is coming from the BS involved in twisting JP's words (good observation, Napkin Lady) and trying to make Harve and his cohorts look like the good guys. (Interesting that old Rosielee pawned this one off on Harve, isn't it? As president of the organization, wouldn't you think she'd be the one speaking up? Hmmmm, interesting indeed.) Well, Harvey, since you've opened the dialogue, I have a few questions for you concerning some other situations in a similar vein as Mrs. Wierwille's care: 1. What about Cora Mae Peters? What kind of consideration was she given when she fell terminally ill after decades of service to The Way International? Did you pay for her care in her last days after she was booted out of there? I heard you didn't. I heard it from someone who's in a position to know. So are you going to tell me you did? If so, can you prove it? Backpedal that one. 2. How about Don Wierwille's funeral? What's wrong with this picture? The children of Dr. V.P. Wierwille had a time limit on how long they were permitted to stay at a funeral for their brother? A funeral, by the way, in case you've forgotten, which was taking place on the property of the home they grew up in?!?!? You should be ashamed of yourself, Harvey. Really ashamed. And so should Rosalie and Donna and the new guy on the BOD. You live quite well (and don't tell me you don't, cuz I've been in some of your homes) off the ABS of the people of the Way. But you'd better be careful. All that backpedaling could be hazardous to the future of your gravy train, don't you think? (Paw, I hope I was polite enough. I didn't cuss and I didn't call any names, but these people just frost my cookies.) Linda Z

Happy Anniversary to our lovable resident curmudgeon and his beloved bride. Hope you're doing something delicious and fun! Love, Linda

I'm so sorry to hear about your mom. If her condition is terminal, then I'd recommend contacting the local hospice people. (Her hospital or her doctor should have contact info for them.) Hospice nurses know more about pain management and making patients comfortable than anyone in the medical professions, as far as I'm concerned. They're also there to help the person's family during a difficult time. You're all in my prayers, Linda Z

Hi, HAP: Yes, they're still in Strongsville...my mom and sister just talked to Walt at a memorial service a couple weeks ago. I don't have their contact info, but I'll bet they're in the book. Linda Z [This message was edited by Linda Z on August 07, 2003 at 7:50.]

Thanks, Digger! I'd forgotten about that site. I used to use Bibliofind, but I think they got sucked up by Amazon.com. Linda Z

"our doggies sleep in the beds. it grosses me out..... and i love it....." Tell me about it. Last night Emma "cut the cheese," and I thought I'd die. "do you think in heaven we can have hairless dogs...." I don't know why they aren't all hairless now, as much as they shed! "... and ones with nice breath" Only if there are no kitty litter boxes to raid in heaven.

Very interesting discussion, and interesting link, ExC. I don't agree with everything the guy says, but the stuff on dogfights was good. My Emma (40 lbs soaking wet but has that vice-grip terrier mouth) isn't aggressive toward other dogs when we're out and about, but when she's in our fenced yard, she growls and barks at everyone. A neighbor comes by to talk over the fence sometimes, and Emma sits there and snaps and snarls at her dog the whole darn time. And it's true, when she's really riled up I dare not reach for her collar to pull her back, because she doesn't even know it's me she's snapping at. Judging from the article on that Web site, I'm lucky she didn't rearrange my hand or arm. One thing I don't agree with from that site is not letting my dog sleep in my bedroom. She's very alert to noises and very protective of me. At the very least she'd let me know if anyone tried to break in, and she'd probably take an intruder's face off if he came after me. I don't think she'd be much help in a crate or in another room. Linda

Please check your private topics. Gracias, LZ

Oops, I'm late! Hope the day was great and the year will be fantastic! Linda Z

Hi NIKA: Last I knew he was back in Missouri, divorced from his first wife and remarried, but that was about 10-12 years ago. I'd also love to hear how he's doing. Linda Z

Heh, you guys are funny. It did cross my mind that the absence of the ingredient named by Yana might change how I heard Spirit's music. A little Traveling Wilburys or Tom Petty would have provided much better cleaning inspiration, I'm sure. Linda Z