Linda Z

Shaz, thankful to God, of course. It's God who always had/has my best interests at heart, no matter what men's motives were where I was concerned.

Shaz asked, "Can you just imagine God saying, 'Well, we're gonna have to sacrifice a bunch of My kids so that some others can hear the rightly-divided Word.'" No, I can't imagine that at all. But I can imagine that wherever you go, whether to a twi fellowship or the RC church, God can reach and teach you if you're ready to listen, despite how screwed up the organization is. Linda Z

Ex10, I have no problem recognizing that some people worship VPW. I think, however, that others are simply trying to figure things out and not in that category, and that the name gets tossed out a bit too readily. Raf, thanks, and I'm glad that made you feel better. My apologies to Oak the Thread Starter. :)--> Socks and Hopefull, great points. I trace my former thinking about "well, we all sin" back to the "big and little sins" thing in PFAL. Maybe to God all sin is sin and there aren't degrees, but I think the sins that involve using and carelessly hurting other people are bigger sins on that horizontal level that VP was always talking about. Shaz, like Johnny L, I don't feel I was hoodwinked, either, and I don't feel embarrassed about being in the way. I got what I went for and I left when I became aware that all wasn't right, just like anything else I ever got into in my life. The "product," if you will, that I wanted wasn't a MOG or a "father" but something that made sense about God and a clue that God gave a hoot about me or any of us. In between VP's stories and opinions, I heard/read a whole bunch of Bible verses I'd never heard/read before that put a lot of stuff together for me, and they woke me up to a much greater awe for God than I'd ever dreamed of having. Johnny L., Geer talked in POP about how f'd up everyone else was, from the BOT to the Corps to the rest of the believers. I don't recall hearing one thing that VP said he regretted about his own actions. I agree with Ex10 and excathie that Geer was complicit in the crap. There would have been no need to "confess" it to him. Linda Z

CW, thanks for the hugs...back at ya!! Raf, thanks. I've been thinking about this for a long time and waiting till I could say what I wanted to say without hurting anyone. I hope I haven't, because that sure wasn't my intent. Dabob: I'm praying for your health to improve. I've got a couple chronic issues of my own going on, so I surely do understand!! I want to be in the front of the line when the new bodies are handed out!!! :D--> Love to all, Linda

Lightside: She was Wendy F when I knew her in the Corps, and if I remember correctly, she was single then. Linda Z

Oh, PS, CW. I don't think you're a freak. I think you had the misfortune to be around some of the worst of the worst "leadership" ever to bark orders, humiliate people, and misuse their positions in twi. I thank God that you've been able to regain your voice and self-confidence after all you went through! Linda Z

CW, good post, and thanks for the compliment. Dabobbada, nice to see you around here! I've missed you! Linda Z

Lightside: I don't know if she ever wrote a book, but I do know she underwent deprogramming in the late 70s and went on tv shows talking about twi being a cult. Linda Z

andrea, welcome to GS, you sweet girl! Come back when you can stay longer. And dovey, you're a sweet girl too! Linda Z

You betcha it's mutual, my sweet excathie. And you have shown more gentleness and compassion than most anyone else toward those who've had trouble comprehending that all wasn't sweetness and light in twi! You not only wouldn't hurt a fly, you'd ask if it needed anything! xoxo linzee

The LCM/VPW's sins thread started by Linda Carter is so derailed that it's run clean off the track, so I'm gonna start a slightly different one on a similar topic so as not to derail the derailment. :)--> When I first found Waydale, I posted things that sounded much like Linda Carter's first post here. Maybe it will help someone if I tell what contributed to my disbelief and what it took to change my mind. First, I worked one-on-one occasionally with VPW, usually on the coach, and he was never anything but respectful to me. He had been very kind to my son while I was in the Family Corps and on HQ staff, and he knew my parents and was likewise kind to them. So my own experience was different from what I was reading. Add to that the anonymity factor. When I read the things I read on Waydale and later on GS, I figured, who/what should I believe--a lot of nameless people whose truthfulness I have no way of knowing, or my own experience? (I'm not advocating that anyone has to reveal his/her identity. Some have good reason to keep that private. I'm just saying I'm not inclined to take as gospel the word of people I don't know, expecially over the Internet.) Third, I had a friend who wanted to sleep with VP. She was young, beautiful, and extremely vulnerable. She went to him for counseling, and in the course of their conversation he told her, "Aw honey, I wish I could take care of you that way, but it just wouldn't be right" (referring to sex). Fourth, a woman I knew who was one of the most publicly vocal regarding the sex crap at HQ under VP's regime was a woman who, although I liked her for her other qualities, had no credibility with me on this particular subject, because she was a wild thing and her reputation (among her own friends, not among "leadership" she'd ....ed off) was that she slept around all over the place. Okay, so those were the things working against my believing anonymous posts about someone I'd known and loved. But before anyone throws that "VP apologist" name at me (a name that I think does much more harm than good, because it gets applied too freely to people who are just trying in their own way to sort everything out), I'll tell you how I changed my views. First, it was Sunesis. I knew her and knew her to be an honest person. I knew she had no reason to lie about VP's unwelcome advances. Second, it was excathie. When I learned who she was (I knew her years ago), I had no doubt that her story was true. I know it's hard for people who saw this stuff before some of the rest of us to hear people saying "just forgive" and "we all sin," etc. I got raped when I was 20 and pregnant with my son, and trust me, if anyone had told me "oh, just forgive him" before I was ready to write him off as someone who wasn't worth any of my emotional energy, I'd have told them to kiss my backside. I freely admit that I remain thankful that VPW, however it happened, and whatever his motives were for doing so, taught PFAL. I don't buy it all now, but I haven't discarded it all, either. It was the wake-up call I needed at the time in my crazy life when it came along. That doesn't mean I idolize VPW. God knew what I needed and who could reach my heart to the point that I'd believe that He was really, really, really real. Nothing against Billy Graham, but he never reached me, and I had watched him preach on TV and had gone to one of his large meetings. None of the other ministers I'd grown up around or looked to for a clue about God had reached me. VPW did. Not with his "stoh-rees" but by showing me I could read the Bible myself and beginning to open my eyes to how amazing God and His Son are (a lifelong process). In answer to Linda's initial question, it's not my job to excuse or condemn anyone's sins. God will sort all that out in the end. I'm thankful it's not up to me! I'll never hate VPW, but I certainly hate the stupid, hurtful things he did to people. And I'll not deny those people their right to shine light on the darker side of TWI and on the men and women who were supposed to be caring for God's precious children but were abusing/taking advantage of them. Having said all that, I do believe some gentleness and compassion is needed from people on both sides (ha, are there really only two?) of this issue. To me, to call someone a "VPW idolator" if they're not quick to believe what people they don't know are saying is just as hurtful as to try to stifle the voices of the abused. I hope no one takes anything I've said as an accusation against them. It's not. I'm not here to judge. I'm here to "hang out" with some of the greatest people on earth. Linda Z

I just wanted to take a moment to wish everyone Merry Christmas. Love, Linda Z PS to Paw: Nice trees!! They beat the heck out of stripes! :D-->

Hi No Way: Remind that buttinski that there is a balance in life. Sometimes it's time to pray for no rain, and sometimes it's time to repair the roof. Only you and God know the difference, and it's nobody's flippin' business to decide that for you. Please don't let anyone "guilt" you into not doing what YOU know is best for your life. Do what you need to do to improve your financial situation, and if the people in your fellowship don't like it, start your own. Read the Bible by yourself for a while. Join a club. Join a church. Or don't. It's YOUR life. I'm praying that your financial situation improves, but if you need to work lots of hours to help that along, it's for you to decide--no one else. ((No Way)) Linda Z PS. That person might mean well. I did when I told a friend of mine once that he "wasn't believing God" when he couldn't go to some stupid weekend meeting instead of working. I was being a jerk. Fortunately, he had the good sense to ignore me. :-)

act2: I think everything turned out great because you're you and because you have a heart that trusts God! And it's very possible that Harvey gave you good advice. I never had Harvey for a leader, but he always struck me as a nice guy when I was around him on staff. I'm sorry that he got sucked into playing Rosie's yes man. I hope someday he figures it out and gets the heck out of that place in New Knoxville. Linda z

CW: I'm not sure which thread to put this in, but I guess this one will do. :)--> Although there was elitism ad nauseum in twi, I honestly don't think the differences in the way we all celebrated Christmas were really about whether one was in an "elite" group or not. I think these variations had a lot more to do with what kind of "leadership" we had and whether we felt comfortable telling them to buzz off when they tried to impose stupid, legalistic do's and don'ts on us. I think it's like anything else in twi. There is no universal "we." While we ex-wayfers have a lot of things in common, our experiences are all over the place. Some of us had loving, down-to-earth "leaders" and some of us had ambitious, legalistic jokers who couldn't find their butts in the dark with both hands and a flashlight, so they were always trying to tell us where our butts should be. I surely was never in any elevated (or remotely elite!) position, either before the Corps or after graduating--unless you count cleaning toilets at the Rock or working for low wages at HQ for the Queen of Hell as prestigious positions! :)--> Another thing I think we have to remember is that when VPW said "Christ doesn't need a mass," or that "the origin of the Christmas tree was Pagan worship," the VP-pleasers on the field (going to the great lengths those types always went to to be spurtchul), created all sorts of ridiculous, ungodly laws and did their damnedest to get people to follow them. Meanwhile, Christmas celebrations went on at HQ and the campuses in much the same way as they're enjoyed everywhere else, except for calling it "Household Holidays." Linda Z PS. What exsie said: I hope Christmas today and all the Christmases to come more than make up for the dimbulbs you had to put up with. [This message was edited by Linda Z on December 16, 2003 at 17:14.]

I can't be there in person, but I'll be there in spirit! Besides being the joyous event of your wedding, sounds like it'll be one heck of a party! Pictures! We want pictures!! Lots of pictures!!! Linda Z

My son's not here, but I can tell you what we did and how he still feels about Christmas today. He was 5 when I got into twi. He already didn't believe in Santa, but I never "demonized" ole St. Nick to him, and I didn't know anyone else in the local fellowships who did, either. (Santa used to come to the kids' party at HQ, in fact.) We always had a tree and decorations in our home. We celebrated Christmas just like I'd celebrated it as a child: lots of gifts, food, and family get-togethers with my parents and siblings and friends. I know that it was a special, "magical" time for my son, and it still is. He called me right after Thanksgiving and told me that he put up his Christmas lights a week before Thanksgiving, the day he moved into his new apartment. He laughed and asked, "Do you think that's too early?" Linda Z

Hi Wonder, and welcome! I think before you can answer the question "should we go back?" you have to remember why you left. My strong hunch is that if you think it's gotten better than it was when you saw good reason to leave, going back would only prove disappointing. I was in for 17 years and after I left, I missed many people. But that passes, honest it does. You'll also get past the idea that twi has a corner on the truth. They don't. Never did. (And this is coming from someone who had a very good twi experience until near the end and who still appreciates the good I gleaned from it.) Linda Z

One of my favorites is "Little Drummer Boy," especially the version sung by that odd singing duo of all time, David Bowie and Bing Crosby. It was taped on Sept. 11, 1977, and Crosby died a month later, before it was aired. Linda Z

Hope you're having a wonderful birthday!!! Linda Z

For someone who's inexperienced with birds, I'd recommend a parakeet. I understand some of them can even say some words & phrases, and they don't bite nearly as hard as parrots and bigger birds. (I can show you some serious scars on my fingers.) There are some cute, talkative small parrots, but some of them squawk a lot and make a terrible racket considering their size. Training them takes some experience, IMO, so unless you have an expert bird friend, I'd think twice. And even small parrots/lovebirds, etc. can be expensive. Since kids sometimes think they want pets and then grow tired of them, that's another good reason for a parakeet. Then if your little sweetie really takes an active interest he can work up to a more expensive breed next. General bird warning, though. They're messy as all get out. Not just in their cages, but all around them. They fling food and seed hulls, bird dander, and sometimes feathers all over the place. You sure he doesn't like little chameleons or turtles? :)--> Good luck! Linda

I was at my part-time job at Kroger's (grocery store), standing at my cash register. I was stopped in my tracks--combination of disbelief and sadness. I went to my college classes that night, and my most distinguished, most reserved professor was crying as he told us classes were canceled. You're right, Kit. The "mood" of our country was very much like it was on 9/11/2001. Linda

Great post, Tom. Inspiring, even. Thank you!

Obviously, what the cross represents is more important than a physical depiction of the cross: Jesus' incredible sacrifice, God's unfathomable love, full payment for mankind's sins, and so much, much more. I don't care much one way or the other about crosses (i.e., the ones you see on steeples and at fronts of churches and on necklaces). If you want to wear or display 'em, that's fine with me, and if you don't, that's fine too. Not having a cross around never made me stop thinking about how wonderful Jesus was and is or how loving (thanks, Alfa) God was and is. Linda Z

alfa, I'd add, and no money in it, either. Linda Z