Linda Z

I already had a high level of skepticism for organized religion before my Way Dayz. I warily got involved because the idea that I could read the Bible myself and didn't have to rely on a preacher telling me what it all meant was appealing, and I wanted to hear more about it. Once it dawned on me that, in practice, twi was just another religion with preachers telling me what the Bible said, it only strengthened my resolve not to get too entrenched ever again in any group of people for religious purposes. But it didn't affect my awe and love for God or Jesus Christ. I just went back to where I was before, believing that spirituality doesn't depend on a group or its leaders' approval. And BTW, I'm from Ohio (the northern part), and we don't sound anything like VP or the TV preachers! And we certainly don't have LCM's Okie twang. :)-->

Just remembered something else. When I was an almost-outie (out in my heart but not yet identified as an undesirable by twi"leadership"), a new batch of Corps arrived in town after the ROA ('89, I think). A friend and I went for the sole purpose of asking them about the crapola we were hearing coming out of HQ (lines in the sand, LCM is THE man, blah blah blah). Well, according to the local Geerites, you'd have thought we were going to a meeting with the Devil himself. "Ohhhhh, you're treading in dangerous territory." "I don't think you should go." "You're gonna get deceived." cluck cluck cluck. Do you see a pattern here? It's those "us and them" patterns that have to be broken before *real* freedom happens and not just the freedom to say whatever you like whenever you like to whomever you deem "the other side." Shoot, the whole world has that kind of freedom down to a science! I hope I'm not sounding harsh, because I'm not feeling harshly toward anyone who's posted in this thread. I just think it's extremely freeing to break some of these patterns we picked up along the way that might still lurk in our minds.

Hehehe Dan. Keep in mind that most yellow-hatted bless patrolers were either peons in the Corps (the big-shot Corps snagged Important Jobs or no jobs during ROA) or returning/departing WOWs or other volunteers. They had nutn' to do with the Safety Dept. I remember lots of funny BP stories, like kids trying to stop VP from going into his house or yelling at some big honcho Rev. who was breaking some rule or other. When I was on HQ staff, the majority of the Safety guys were really nice guys, with only a couple of Barney Fife types mixed in. And they had (at that time...early to mid-80s) a decent working releationship with the local gendarmes. Most of their duties involved checking on fire alarms and shooing away teenagers driving up and down the road shouting insults and obscenities. Of course this was before the days when "genuine spiritual suspicion" reigned supreme. Then they acquired the embarrassing job of having to escort M&A'd pepople off grounds. A friend of mine from New Bremen (who had recently gotten fired or quit HQ staff) got a big chuckle. One day she was booted off HQ grounds by one of the Safety guys (she was visiting old friends and co-workers). Later that day she ran into the guy at the grocery store in St. Mary's. She just smiled and said "Hey" as if nothing had happened, and he blushed and sorta tip-toed away.

Thank you SirGuess, for having the heart and guts to say what you've said. I understand the knee-jerk reactions. Who knows, maybe LLPOF is just messing with us and trying to get people's dander up. But why should any of us be so bothered by words that we've already dismissed as false? Where is the threat? Or maybe, as SirGuess says, this person is only a few steps away from where we were not so very long ago. For some of us it's been a lot of years, for others only months or a few years. But who here never said anything like what he's said when still sold on the "product"? Does he sound like a VP idolizer? Sure. But I'd rather leave judgment (as in judging him guilty and beneath contempt, not judging his words) to God. If I were LLPOF and if I were sincere in my first post (rather than coming here for some *hit stirring, which of course he might be), I would react the way I did back in the deprogrammers' heyday and dig my feet a li'l deeper into the sand. Where's the harm in speaking reasonably to someone we think is being unreasonable? Are we gonna get way cooties? Reminds me of when Ralph D et al were touring the country and still-innies were issuing Big Warnings: Don't go there. Devil spirits mutter mutter possessed mutter mutter talk you outa the Word mutter mutter. I remember thinking, "Okay, so all this spiritual darkness is contagious? Those nasty ol' spirits on Ralph are gonna jump from him to me like fleas?" Sir has a point. Can those of you who get so angry at LLPOF's kind of declarations stop and consider that he's no threat. He might be hoodwinked, but which of us here wasn't at one time?

My experience has been that people who talk a lot about sex aren't having much. ;)--> :D-->:D-->:D-->:D-->:D-->

Jim, He and his wife were big proponents of Momentus a number of years ago, I seem to recall. I don't know if they still are, but if the Web site is up to date, it would appear so.

That's ok, Shell, let everyone talk about the rainy weather. I might like to retire there someday, and I'd hate to see the crowds there that migrated up from Calif. to Washington a few years ago. :D-->

Hahahaha Tom S, that explains why my ex-husband still lives there. But I can assure you that my Oregonian ex-judge fundie (but loveable in his own way) uncle does NOT smoke pot!!

Hi Exsie: Nice to see ya. :)--> I can't speak for "us all." I can only speak for me. (I'll bet everyone else that makes up the you all is glad about that!!!!) As for the current skirmishes between sites, I can only say this: No one from GS speaks for everyone on GS whether they're typing here or elsewhere; nor does any one person or group of people represent everyone else in any of the GS "subgroups" (i.e., Christians, non-Christians, not-sures, vegetarians, carnivores, whatever). I agree w/ Tom the Strange but Delightful--the whole "us/them" thing has gotten out of hand, and from what little I've seen on the two other forums, passions have been running hot. I've read comments from some of the ex-JW board members (not all of them, and not always) that seemed geared to fan the flames, and I've seen comments from the "oh my God they're evil--we must protect ourselves" camp who seem to have done the same. I'd love to see a truce be called to let things cool off a bit, although I doubt that's gonna happen. If **I** ruled the world, all the people involved in this recent drama, on BOTH sites, would quit running back and forth backbiting each other. But I can't even rule my dog and cat, so my ruling anything is pretty much out. :P--> Here's another thought: Everything is magnified on the Internet--passions of the lovey-dovey kind and the hateful kind and the "I have a cause" kind. Maybe a better word is concentrated--undiluted by the real-life accountability and face-to-face contact that let us read people more clearly and react to them more like we would to someone next door or at work. My 4 cents.

Shellon, I'm glad my old home state is being good to you and that you're having such a spectacular vacation. And there's more than the ocean! I still remmeber lying in the back of my dad & mom's car as a little girl, as we drove through the mountains, gazing up at nothing but huge pine trees that seemed to stretch to outer space and blue, blue skies. And there's desert, too, for a change of scenery, and lakes and rivers and.... Wow, I think I'm homesick after all these years. We keep trying to get my dad to move out there. Mom's ready, my sister's ready. I'm ready. But Dad says, "Go ahead. I'll keep in touch by e-mail."

Thanks, Long Gone. It's been more than 20 years since I heard it, so I thought I might not be remembering correctly.

Dovey. you're a gem among gems.

Geo, are you sure about "The Fourth Man" by Oral Roberts being the same as "The Red Thread"? I thought "The Fourth Man" was only about Shadrach, Meschach and Abdegneo in the fiery furnace. Did it go on to include the red thread stuff? "The Fourth Man" was played during the Advanced Class when I took it in 1977 and, to me, it was incredibly powerful and stirring. And I thought the same about "The Red Thread." I remember them as two separate Oral Roberts sermons--but then again, I do lapse into CRS from time to time!

Wow. Simply input the word "smug" and *poof*, as if by magic, look who the cat drags in. :D--> Welcome back, Satori. Nice to see you, too. :)-->

Hope, I absolutely agree with your opinion of Hitchens. I really dislike smugness, and he's got it in spades. Can't offer an opinion of the movie because I haven't seen it yet. I'll get around to it one of these days, or I'll wait for the video.

Oh, and about fitting in. I don't feel I do either, not at all. I'm not "anti" enough for the vehemently anti-twi people. I'm not pro-twi or pro "mastering PFAL," so I'm out of step with that faction. I'm a Christian, but I'm way out of step with many beliefs of the more fundie Christians among us. I like neither the extremely liberal or extremely conservative political points of view, so I'm sure I tick people off from both sides of the political discussions (but more likely the conservatives...I've noticed they're easier to annoy...:)-->). What can I say? I'm a misfit. It only bothers me occasionally. It means, I believe, that I'm an independent cuss with a mind of my own. What can I say? I gotta be meeeeee!

Exsie, you fit perfectly right where you are, by simply being yourself. Who says we gotta fit anywhere? Love you, Linda

I happen to think Jesus Christ is the most amazing person to have ever put sandal to sand. But I don't feel obligated or compelled to convince anyone else to think so who's already made up his or her mind to the contrary. I think it's sad, but we're not puppets on strings. We each have to come to our own conclusions. I'm glad you 'fessed up to being a bit inflammatory, Refiner. If you hadn't, your credibility would have slipped a little with me. :D--> I don't mind rabble rousers as long as they aren't mean, and you don't look so mean to me. At least you didn't tell me I'm a dumbass who might as well believe in the Easter Bunny, so you got some points with me there. :D-->:D-->:D-->

Refiner: You sound as if you think the "recruiters" are different people from the other members of twi. I don't know about the other groups you infiltrated in an effort to expose them, but aside from the WOW program (1-year evangelizin' missionary-type commitment; later they had Way Disciples or something...after my time), that wasn't the case. In other words, "We have met the enemy and they are us." (thank you, Pogo) In the early 70s, if we liked what we heard and saw at a twi fellowship or class, we enthusiastically told others about it. Thus twi grew. By the late 70s, people were being pressured more and more to push PFAL and twi. To "go witnessing" and "sign people up for the class." Thus the seeds were planted for it to shrink, if you ask me. By the mid-80s, twi had become much more "corporate" than in earlier days (or, much more obviously corporate, to those who believe it was never more than a money-making scam to begin with). Up and coming Twi leader wannabes imitated LCM, who was imitating VPW in form more than substance, and voila, more shrinkage resulted. Not a very successful "recruitment" program anymore, so they went into the "the Word's already over the world" mode. I see this as comparable to the attitude your cat might exhibit right after falling into the toilet: I MEANT TO DO THAT! The term "love-bombing," is one of those anti-cult cultists' buzz words that sounds like some sort of a commie plot. I've always felt that term to be misleading. Who were these "love bombers"? No one during my 17 years in twi ever said or implied or hinted to me, "Pretend you care about people to suck them in." Our care for people who came to fellowship, in my own experience and that of many friends, was genuine. I know there were those who were playing the numbers game--how many new people they could get, how many classes they could run, etc., and they certainly were encouraged in this direction by twi HQ. But the average twi believer out there was for real when we invited someone to fellowship. We took kids off the street and fed them, we comforted those who were hurting, we tried to give answers to those who were searching--because we cared, not because we were trying to "recruit" anyone. I understand that by the 90s, under LCM's fearless leadership, twi followers were told NOT to "recruit" any down and outers--they were instructed to go only after people with jobs and money and prestige and whatever other qualities LCM deemed desirable. So much for the last shreds of altruism that might have existed in that outfit, eh? It worked like a charm, didn't it? Today twi is a teeny, tiny shadow of its former self, just bringing in enough cash to make sure its current head honchos can live out their days in comfort and style. WOW.

You wild A/V guys! :)--> Actually, I was on staff for only 4 of my 17 years "in," and no one ever gave me trouble about music out in the real world, either.

I guess I was a bad girl. I never got rid of any of my music and never would have considered it. We used to joke about cranking up the "devil music" while we painted the barns at Rome City, and no one gave us a hard time about it. I still have my vinyl from the late 60s and on. Any albums lost were lost at parties. :P-->

I did miss you, Your Toadness. Welcome back!

insurgent: Yes, 'twas I. I'd forgotten all about that big fib! She had to approve people's teachings??? Don't I recall something in PFAL or someplace about VP complaining that his denomination wanted to approve his sermons before he gave them?!? Grizzy, I'd like to see that here too, if you could find it. I don't recall ever seeing her cover-up explanation before.

He did. You just didn't like what he said. Why is it that you think when someone disagrees with you (or offers suggestions you apparently don't want to hear) that they (a) dislike you and (b) like twi at all? A wise person told me long, long ago that a true friend is one who'll tell you the truth and not just say what you want to hear.

Hey, Ted, good to see ya. Hope you're enjoying your new digs. Don't mind George. He prides himself on being the resident curmudgeon. As such, it wouldn't be fitting for him to spare anyone's feelings while pointing out that there was never anything good about twi or anything anyone associated with it ever did. ;)--> Imbus, thanks for reminding me of that bus stop song. I was trying and trying to think of it. I liked the lyrics and the tune, and I liked most everything else Claudettee sang, but it seemed to me that song wasn't very well suited for her voice, for some reason. I think many of the "19 year olds" Socks refers to were incredibly talented and turned out some excellent music, especially considering their youth and the constraints they sometimes were under. I didn't/don't like every Way Prod song I ever heard, but I loved many of them and still do, both the music and the lyrics. I wasn't crazy about the Victors' style of music, for example, but I thought they did it well. Just not my cup of tea. I'm sure others didn't like Takit, but I did. I'm glad I left before "Wash My Feet in the Blood of the Wicked" came along. I can't imagine anyone liking that!! The "best" or "worst" song is a very subjective thing. I happen to love Bob Dylan, even though some people think he sings like a steer being poked with a cattle prod. And there are other musicians whose work is highly successful that I don't like at all. That's the beauty of music. There are so many types and styles, there's something for everyone.