Linda Z

Simon: Maybe. How much money do you have?

To me, to jump on the "cult experts'" train is to jump from one group's set of pat answers (twi's) to another (the so called "experts"), and it isn't much of a leap. That's why I call it the "anti-cult cult." These "experts" seem to work from the premise that every wrong thing done by every non-mainstream religious group is based on some evil, well-thought-out plan. Good grief, it sounds like there's a cult handbook that everyone who starts a controlling religious group buys from Amazon.com and then follows: I can see it now. "Okay, I'd like to start a cult. I want people to follow and obey me and give me all their money. What ever shall I do? Oh I know, I'll check the cult-leader's handbook!" (sound of pages turning) Step 1. Sit them on the floor. Step 2. Get them to sing some children's songs (which, by the way, we did not sing at every meal in residence, and we were in the Family Corps, with kids present who LIKED singing children's songs. This kind of exaggeration hinders "innies" from giving credence to the ACTUAL crap that went on in twi, IMO.) Step 3. Call them "kids" (never mind that you're old enough to be a grandfather to many of them and old enough to be a father to most). Step 4. "Love-bomb" them. Step 5. Have a personality. No cult will go far without someone with personality at the helm. Etc., etc. I have no doubt that twi went wrong, very very wrong, and that downfall began under VPW's dominion, even before the spit spewer danced onto the throne in tights. Rather than a pat formula for how cults "work," though, I'd attribute how "cults" work to human nature. People gather in groups. People are drawn together because they have like interests. People are vulnerable to manipulation becuase they are human, and people manipulate other people because, well, they're human, too. There is a striking similarity between the words cult and culture, isn't there? I believe David Anderson said it best in a post long ago: Twi went wrong when VPW started believing his own PR. And we went wrong for the same reason. To wrap up how a cult (in this case twi) happens into a neat little package like this is as naive, in my opinion, as to wrap up your entire life in "the magic of believing." The pat, formula answers offered by the "cult experts" are just as insidious as any of the pseudo-research put out by twi.

I know what you're all saying, being a mom myself (a single mom for most of my son's growing-up years). I'm sure everyone who's posted in this thread loves their children and wants the best for them. Boy, there's such a fine line between helping and enabling, and I've probably crossed over to the latter out of soft-heartedness at times. But I'd rather err on the side of giving than on the side of sink-or-swim. You just have to find the balance. Both "tough love" and "helping" can be taken to such extremes (I'm not saying anyone posting here has done that). I work with a woman who has two boys in Catholic school. If one of them gets in trouble, she assumes--always, in every single situation--that the teacher is right and the kid is wrong. But in some of the situations she's described, the teacher was dead wrong. In those situations, I feel sorry for her kids, because she won't back them up. I remind her that there are some screwed-up teachers out there and that it takes wisdom to know when to let your kids "take their licks" and when to stick up for them. My son had a goofball teacher at NK High School. A real piece of work. He hated the Wayfer kids and took every opportunity to prove it. For example, he once invited my son outside to fight him! On another occasion, he told my son he didn't like him and was sorry he had him in class. Oh, and he told the boys in another class (health class, ha!) that if they ever masterbated, it meant they were homosexuals. Now, I knew full well my son wasn't an angel. He was a bit of a class clown. But nothing he did warranted this jerk's behavior. So I made an appointment with the principal and took my son in to meet with her and the teacher. The four of us talked, and I showed no disrespect for the teacher in front of my son. I simply asked both of them to tell their sides of this ongoing conflict. When that part of the meeting was finished, I asked my son to wait in the hall, and then I let the teacher have it with both barrels. Told him he had no control over his classes and let them run wild till they ....ed him off, then he reacted too harshly. Told him his calling out my son to fight was childish coming from a teacher, etc. Told him no matter how true it was, he had no business telling a child in front of the whole class, "I don't like you." And more. This was my son's senior year, and it turned out he had enough credits to graduate if he dropped this guy's two classes. So that's what I insisted on. He graduated and went on to college the next year. Some people would say I should have just told my son to tough it out, that the world's an ugly place and he might as well get used to it, that he had to respect authority in this life, blah blah. My feeling was that if I knew my kid was being mistreated and didn't stand up for him, what kind of message would that convey to him? I do believe in teaching children to stand on their own two feet. I also believe some grace and mercy are in order, even into adulthood. God knows my parents have extended those to me at times, and it hasn't made me weaker--just more appreciative of the loving, giving parents I have.

Juan, interesting slice of life, for sure! I've seen documentaries about all the people who work late at night in cities, but they never highlighted dumpster picker-uppers. I hope they don't accidentally pick up any dumpster divers! Derail alert! Hmmm, maybe not. It's sorta about Mr. Toad's Wild Ride: Exsie, I'm with you on the speeding taxi thing. I'd rather take a bus or a train, where I can't really see what's going on, than to be dashing through busy traffic in a big city with some guy driving who speaks no English and probably just arrived in this country a week earlier. It really freaks me out. So far, Washington, DC, is the worst for taxi drivers. I take the Metro everywhere I can when I go there for this very reason! The all-time worst ride was in Atlanta, though. The taxi driver looked a few days short of 100. He had several bottles of his pills on the front seat beside him. And we had to go on the freeway. (shudder) When he drifted off onto the shoulder at about 80 mph, I grabbed my boss's arm and didn't let go till we got to the airport!

Nice to see you Plots. God bless you for your tender care of Josie and Sally. I think your second letter is particularly comforting.

Paw, can you tell us anything else about G-mail? Is it better than other e-mail services in some way? Danke

Holy moley!

Belle, I just thought of what might have led you to think I'd said earlier that Bob had let her slide. A few years after this confrontation, when I asked him how he could stick around twi when someone like RFR was still allowed to continue her crap, and when I asked him if that didn't tell him anything about twi, he said, "Oh, it's just her personality" or something to that effect. That's when I knew he'd rationalized and bought the BS so he could live with himself in staying with twi. But at the time of the incident, he definitely got what was going on and confronted her on it.

Belle asked: "Linda, didn't she lie to Bob Moynihan to avoid a confrontation? Didn't Bob know she was lying and let it slide?" Yes to the first question, no to the second. She did lie. I'd made it perfectly clear that I wanted to talk to her with Bob present because I wanted a witness to what both she and I said, and because he was the Trustee Cabinet member over her department. She agreed that she would meet with me with Bob there. When the time rolled around for us to meet, Rosalie called me into her office and asked me to sit down. I (being able to count to three from an early age :D-->) noticed someone was missing and said, "Where's Bob?" She said, "I don't think we need Bob for this, do we?" I said, "Yes, we do," and went to my desk and called Bob on the phone. She had told him that I was ok with just meeting with her, and that she and I had worked it out. So she lied to him, too. I told Bob I wouldn't meet with her without him there, because it would be a waste of time and effort. I wanted him to hear what she said so she couldn't deny it later and so she couldn't misrepresent to him or anyone else what I said. He came down to her office immediately. To Bob's credit, he did confront her for lying--vigorously. And when she tried to wriggle her way out of it, he didn't back down. It made no difference. No matter how many times Bob and I both confronted her for lying to me to get me to take a Corps assignment in her department that I didn't really want, or for lying to avoid the meeting with bob, Rosalie refused to own up to it. All she kept saying was, "Ahm sorry if ah hurt your feelin's." I don't know how many times I said, "It's not about my feelings. It's about your lying and your manipulation of me and everyone else in this department." In her mind, she had done no wrong, I'm sure. We knew better and she still wouldn't admit to anything more than hurting my feelings. Heck, I wasn't hurt. I was ....ED. I was ....ed at RFR. I was ....ed at VPW for giving a person like that ANY authority over ANY of God's precious children. I was also ....ed that she had hurt so many of my friends in the department. I was ....ed that some of my friends in Way Pub believed her snow-job and were deceived into thinking she was so spiritual because she dropped VP's name all the time. This is the woman at the helm of The Way International. Not pretty, is it?

HCW, although you and Sal were the first casualties of the blatant "purge," trust me when I say it started much earlier under Rosalie's regime as the head of Way Pub (and probably in Way Prod and U of L, though I'm not privy to what went on in those depts.). If you didn't cowtow to the Fox's way of thinking and operating, she tried to coerce you into doing so. If you still didn't comply, she made things miserable enough for you that you couldn't possibly bear to stick around. Anyone who stood up to her was gone, one way or another. Good people, including myself, were forced out in this way back in '85 and '86 after she took over our department. I've mentioned this in other threads, but I think it bears repeating here, because it corroborates once again what HCW has said about RFR's disregard for the Word she claims so "passionately" to uphold and promote. When she did my last annual staff evaluation before I quit my job in Way Pub, I expressed displeasure with the fact that so much of our time was eaten up by mandatory meetings, extra work, etc., that there was precious little time to actually sit down and read the Bible. Her response: "You don't need to read the Bible. You read Way Publications in your work all day." That's the Fox in a nutshell as far as I'm concerned. Phony, religiosity personified, coated with sticky stuff that makes maple syrup smell like vinegar by comparison. A fox is romping around in the hen house, and she doesn't care about the people in twi, about the Word of God, or about anything but maintaining her status and authority and comfy lifestyle. What HCW and I are saying about her isn't second-hand knowledge or the rantings of "bitter" exfollowers. It's "just the facts, ma'am." Those who have stuck around and who still buy her superficially sweet image would do well to take heed. The kind of control exercised over twi followers is not driven by love, no matter how many lovey-dovey and spiritual-sounding words accompany it

HCW, I'm so sorry you all had this horrid experience. (Boy, words are so inadequate!) I was at HQ, and I heard that there'd been an accident, but none of the details. I'm so thankful that people like Elly and Art were there to comfort you. Such hearts of love and wisdom. I can't imagine what you went through, but I'm glad you can talk about it here with us. Love you, Linda

I was there to see Charles Henry Rxx get sent airborne by that huge bull, too. Scared the bejeebers outa me. My good friend was hellbent on riding a bull. She did. She dislocated her shoulder--just in time for her wedding right after graduation. My mother raised no fools. I chased little calves around to try to get a ribbon from one of their tails. Ha! It was then I knew that smoking and high altitude don't mix. It's true that it was totally voluntary, and I clearly remember that no one was pushed into it, and it wasn't held up as some big macho thing to do. It was just offered, and lots of people didn't participate. I guess I remember people going to Gunnison and paying for rodeo school, but ours was a freebie for graduating Corps week or whatever they called it. Slight derail: About 15 years ago I was in Oregon visiting my ex-husband. He was dealing blackjack in this bar, so I was sitting at the bar nearby when a couple rodeo clowns came in. We started chatting and, after hearing I was from Ohio, they said, "Did you ever meet any real rodeo clowns before?" I said, "Well, just one--Bob Donalxson." They said "Whoa, really?" I guess he was pretty well known around the rodeo circuit.

Happy birthday/unbirthday/day, Shell, to a great GS fellow-citizen!

Okay, I think I sorta derailed things here...sorry, Shell. Lemme think of one to nudge us back on track. Hmmm. I'm terrified of most insects. Centipedes and millipedes are the worst, followed by silverfish and any kind of beetle that has anything on it remotely resembling pincers. *shuddering even to type those creepy bug words* I'd sooner give Fear Factor a million dollars (yeah, like I have a million dollars) so I wouldn't have to eat a bug than to put anything as disgusting as a cockroach in my mouth. Spiders don't really bother me. Go figure.

Aw, Socksness, look at you, so young and cute. Aw heck, you're still young and now you're handsome! Good grief, were we all ever really that young??? I guess these photos are proof of that, huh?

Glad you guys liked the photo. Yes, we do look serious, don't we? So young and earnest. Belle, I like you, too! Hiway, you're hardly an old fart. The ex-hippie part I don't know about. :)--> I liked The Standells, too. Larry and his wife were very kind to open their beautiful home and garden to us for our wedding, and all the guys in the band were fun and played for the reception gratis.

Sometimes women order just a salad because they aren't hungry. Sometimes a salad is just a salad.

Geo., mark my words. If you and I are around another 30 or 40 years, the modern physicians of that day will be wondering how the physicians of today could have been so naive. I'd bet money on it.

Krys, in reading your last post, I realize I should have said "Lister," not Pastuer. Got my scientists mixed up! Geo., medicine continues to fly by the seat of its pants every single day. Krys is right: it's a mix of art and science, and I might add it's not always an exact science.

Geo, I agree, but the process has to start somewhere, doesn't it? I'll bet 50 years from now some of the "proof" science has produced today will be debunked, as well. It's an ever-evolving thing, the practice of medicine. I used to write a column for a medical journal about the newly FDA-approved drugs that were being launched. As a result, I understand to a degree David's skepticism about the gov't's role in safeguarding our health. I don't know how many "miracle cures" and "breakthrough treatments" have been approved (supposedly after rigorous study) and then were later shown to be killing people. I know I've seen more than a few during the past 15 years or so that I was paying attention. Bottom line, to me, is that I've yet to meet the perfect medical practitioner, whether mainstream or alternative. The best thing we can do is feed and heed our own bodies and avail ourselves of as few drugs and other chemical and surgical treatments as we safely can. (No, I'm not advocating that people toss out their pills--just watch out for the docs who want to prescribe a drug for every ache or pain or sign of aging we experience.) Anyway, I'm meandering, so I'll just shut up now.

Well, I may have been a dumbass (I've been called worse) , but despite the fact that I didn't like Chris G much and that half of POP was a pity party for how hard he had to work because no one else could do anything right (so typical of CG), some of the things he said rang true for me. They confirmed a lot of what I'd seen at HQ for the previous 4 years. John, I might be reading into what you've said here ("However, we also knew TWI was fuXXked, because of soooo many who fell for it sooo easily...."), but it almost seems like you think that twi fell apart because of those of us who "abandoned ship" after POP. I disagree. I think it was already fuksilated long before that. Regardless of CG's motives (and I don't think they were pure, by any means), I'm glad I heard POP when I did. I stuck around for 3 more years, foolishly thinking I could help fix "our" ministry, but despite its flaws, POP at least made me think I wasn't crazy when I'd thought HQ wasn't the mecca I'd thought and that twi wasn't a perfect organization. So yeah, I stuck around, but I had my guard up. When it seemed to me that nothing was going to fix twi, I left. I agree, though, about the race to grab followers starting in the late 80s. The tapes and transcripts and letters were flying like feathers on chicken-killin' day. It got to where I didn't want to see any of my fellow ex-wayfers, because they were always saying, "You have to listen to this tape!" "Rev. so-and-so changed my life!" I needed a break from all that, and I took it. It's still going on. :D-->

Garth asks: "Have you read *and considered* the details of what Raf, Goey, et al has posted in their alledged 'piling on' on David?" Absolutely. "But why not consider Raf's, Zix's, and Goey's posts in detail, like I suggested?" I already did. Why would you assume I didn't?

David said: I was just thinking about this last week. I saw a commercial from one of the major cereal makers stating that their cereals were going to be made from whole grains. I thought when I heard that commercial, God bless Grace B. and Eleanor W. and all the others like them, both in and out of twi, who fought so hard to raise awareness of what really consitutes good nutrition. It took many years (Grace wasn't the first proponent of healthy eating, of course) for that awareness to increase to the point that consumers started demanding healthier choices. But by golly, it happened. In fact, that commercial triggered quite a discussion between my son and me, about just what you've said, David. It used to be hard to find whole-grain anything outside a health-food store, where prices were high because of limited demand. And I heard many people say that growing food organically was a lot of hooey. Perhaps superoxygenated water will be a readily available (and cheaper) product years down the road after more people look into it and more people realize benefits from it. Maybe not. Maybe it will turn out to offer no real benefit but better-tasting water. But we won't know until we know. Maybe someone will find a way to improve it down the road, but discovery/investigation of anything new has to start somewhere. Maybe someone will prove that it's just "bunk," but they haven't yet--not to my satisfaction as a person who has to read clinical and scientific studies regularly in my work. I've read that other medical people thought Pasteur was off his nut when he suggested that using sterile instruments and good hand-washing practices just might cause fewer people to die after surgery. Thank you, SirGuess and Krys, for your posts, and you too, David. One can simply read them and decide what they want to consider. I'd thank the naysayers, too, if they'd said, "Well, what about this?" or "Have you considered that?" instead of "You're selling snake oil" or "That's just bunk" or the other pronouncements that have been made in this thread. And it's been stated before, and I'll state it again. David isn't selling anything. He's not selling water. He's not selling the equipment to make this water. He came here with an idea to share. I commend him for sticking around after the rocks started flying. And as for Goey's comment way back early in the thread about my lack of objectivity: You could be right. If I'm biased, it stems from the fact that (1) I know David and know what a kind and helpful person he is and (2) that I've seen people in this thread pile onto many other people in the past several years in much the same way they did in this one. Guardians of the freekin' truth. Right.

Thanks for the clarification, Mike. And thanks for the invite, but I don't debate doctrine, so I seldom even lurk in the Doctrinal forum.

Mike, Mike, Mike. We don't need to "work love." We simply need to love.