Linda Z

Oldies, I assure you, if VP's cancer were traceable to the causes WordWolf would like to attribute it to, I'd be just as firm in my support of the facts. This isn't about "giving VP a break" or defending him. I really have neither a pro-VP nor an anti-VP agenda. WW, something that might help you understand this is that primary liver cancer (as opposed to cancer that started elsewhere and spread to the liver) would not be a melanoma. Primary liver cancers include types of carcinoma and sarcoma, but never melanomas. The type of cancer one has, regardless of where it spreads secondarily, is the primary type. Also, cirrhosis of the liver, caused by alcohol abuse, leads to hepatocellular carcinoma, which is not what VP had. I don't dispute that he drank too much, but his cancer wasn't caused by that. Potato, I also tried to figure out what kind of lighting was used, and I can only guess, based on the time frame. I don't know if mercury arc lighting was still being used, but it has a high UV output. Knowing that twi typically bought used equipment, especially back in the 60s when money was scarce, they could have bought some really old theatrical lights. I did speak with Dave Anderson, who witnessed the severe burns to his eyes that VP experienced, and that type of trauma fits with the etiology of ocular cancer. Bright lights could certainly burn delicate eye tissue, as you said, regardless of their UV output. By the way, I heard VP talk about his eye cancer more than once when I was on HQ staff, and I never heard him say he "sacrificed an eye for the Lord"--or for PFAL or for anything else. I know he was big on hyperbole and bravado in his healthier days, but I was around him during the last 4 years of his life and didn't see him in either of those modes near the end. PS to Potato: I understand what you're saying about movie set lights. The difference, though, is that VP was the only person being filmed and he sat and stared into the cameras many hours per day with the lights beating down on him. That's not the typical exposure to the lights one would have when acting in a movie.

WW, LG is correct, and I'd hardly characterize him as a VPW apologist. I'd call him objective. VPW had ocular melanoma, which frequently metastasizes to the liver and, when it does, often causes death. It didn't start in his liver and spread to his eye, but vice versa. This is significant, because different types of cancers have different, specific secondary sites they spread to. A major risk factor for ocular (uveal) melanoma is overexposure to ultraviolet light. I read one study in which welders, for example, were found to have a high rate of this particular cancer. David Anderson, who is far, far from a VPW apologist, was involved in the filming of PFAL and attests to the fact that VPW's eyes were severely burned during the filming by the bright lights used on the set. People with blue eyes and fair hair, such as VPW, are also more vulnterable to ocular cancer. This has nothing whatsoever to do with defending VPW and everything to do with keeping the facts straight.

I think someone's pulling our legs. LG, I love your adherence to the facts, as usual.

Satori, see this thread: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=12647

Suspense is good, Simon. Gives you something to look forward to. I'm just patiently waiting for the green light. I hope I don't forget what I wanted to say. I'm not as young as I usta be.

Thanks, Paw. I didn't e-mail you because I always figure if I post the question in open, the mod-on-duty, whoever that may be, can answer, rather than your being bombarded with questions and whines all the time. Tom, you've got me pegged. Ductape, this bad girl can only PM...too old to PMS! (Thank God!) Ham, I was logged in. That's the first thing I checked. But thanks.

I wanted to start a thread in the CES in Crisis forum, but got an error message saying I don't have permission to start a topic there. Looks to me like lots of people are doing so. Was I a bad GSer and don't know it?

Dot, If you put Martin Luther under the same microscope, I think you'll see that he was no angel, either. Here's one excerpt from an interesting Web site--at http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ269.HTM (Bold type added by me) The conclusion I came to long ago, when disappointed by a group of Christians I was involved with before my twi days, is that people, being human, are prone to really screw things up. There IS no perfect man of God, because there are no perfect people. There is no perfect church, fellowship, religious organization because there are no perfect people to form them. Perfection truly is in the Lord, not in any manmade group that may or may not have the best intentions to serve and worship God. This doesn't excuse people using other people in the name of God, but in my mind, it's a realistic way to look at life.

Wasway, lemme guess. You're Irish? :) Sounds yummy, but your menu sure is different from the white-bread menu my Midwestern family enjoys during the holidays! On Christmas eve we had a lovely Amish ham and Mom's excellent potato salad and baked beans and several kinds of Christmas cookies, then leftovers on Christmas day.

Yes, it's about to get busy around here, so I'd better say... Merry Christmas, Everyone!

Beautiful, PB, just beautiful. Thank you.

What a lovely Christmas present for you all. Thanks for sharing it with us, and merry Christmas!

Joeoday said: Sorry, but this rings too familiar. I hung in there and fought for three years after P of a P was read, while JAL and RD and others were on their "exposing-TWI" road show. Then it dawned on me that nothing I could do was going to change anything, and I left. I purposely avoided jumping on JAL's bandwagon, although I'd been acquainted with him and liked him while in twi. I figured it was time for a break. Fast forward to Waydale, then Greasespot. Those of us who were once deemed copouts by those who persisted longer than we did in their "hang in there and fight" stance were here with open arms to comfort those who stayed in another 5, 10, 15, 20 years--only to get used and abused by twi's leadership. Hanging in and fighting only made the "breakup" more painful for those who stayed. Looking from the outside in, it appears that what CES has to fight for, really, is a playhouse (pretend church?) built with balsa wood. It's my contention that JAL, JS, MG, their spouses, and their "people" needed a time-out after leaving twi to get their heads screwed on straight. I have a hunch that what's coming to a head today is a result of their not taking one.

Thanks, Ham. Merry Christmas to you, too! Who is Buckster? He appears to be a giant gopher. Did I miss a movie?

CW, I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your "itching trigger" comment, but it sure seemed to to be directed at bowtwi, or at least implied. I haven't engaged in that personal prophecy crap since about 1969, but by golly I think I feel one coming on! Here it comes! Ready? God told me to tell you that He loves you.

MStar asked: I wouldn't assume that anyone needs other people to "read, interpret and explain things...over and over." I don't know if that describes the contents of CFF's classes, because I only took one spinoff's class about 10 years ago and it wasn't theirs. Personally, I've had my fill of sitting in classes, but I do think they can serve a purpose. For me, the best thing about listening to a teaching or class is that another person's perspective can inspire me, challenge me, get me to question something in a way I might never have thought of. But what I really want to address is the "own personal connection to God" part of your question, MStar. As I mentioned in the CES thread, I came to twi having already experienced the "personal prophecy" stuff. As Invis Dan pointed out, it was part of a "follow the spirit" movement. That movement was big in S. Calif in the late 60s. Everyone was always talking about "God led me here" and "God led me there" and "I don't feel led to do that," etc. These Christians sounded like they needed for God to tell them when to go to the bathroom and what to eat for breakfast. It wasn't that different from twi in that many twi people thought they could get revelation on demand, 24 hours of every day. But for me, when I took PFAL, I was greatly relieved to see that there was some sort of consistent standard for truth other than my own imperfect ability to listen to God! It takes both, IMO, both an openness to God's still, small voice and enough knowledge of the Bible to keep one grounded and not orbiting out in la-la land. My observation has been that when those two get out of balance (too much emphasis on either one), trouble follows every time. Anyway, I can see why bowtwi might be interested in taking a class. It doesn't mean she's screwed up or that something is going on in her life so her "trigger is itching" (sorry, CW, that's just so much armchair psychology to me). It means she's interested in taking a class. Period. I don't see what's so horrible about that. Bowtwi is obviously intelligent. She can listen to what's taught and decide if she buys any of it or not. I had 17 years of taking classes and I've been out now 17 years. Maybe in another 17 I'll be ready to sit down and listen to another one. :D But I think if bowtwi wants to take CFF's class, that's great. And if you do, let us know if you enjoyed it.

I say bravo. Well done, NLL!

Dear George: I can't imagine GS without you. So many times when discussions have reached an impasse or have deteriorated to a name-calling contest, you have spoken in a level-headed, balanced, fair way, sometimes even in defense of someone whose beliefs you don't share, and helped get things back on track. I respect you so much for that. I love your objectivity. I feel I've gotten to know you a little bit, even though we've never met, and I like you so much. So, selfishly, I hope this is one of those times when the human body defies the doctors' best guesses and that they've underestimated the amount of quality time you have left--by a lot. I think we all know people who've been given X amount of time to live who have exceeded that dramatically. Docs tend to give the worst-case scenario these days. Unselfishly, though, I want for you what you want and pray that you can be at peace and in comfort. Please let us know if there's anything we can do, and please bear with us if we can't help praying for you because we care. ((LG))

Belle, I think it's another one of those when-you-were-in thingies. If I'd been in when you were, I'd probably feel as you do. I was never discouraged by anyone in twi from the Santa thing. In fact, when I was on staff, Santa came and brought gifts for the kiddos; ditto when we were in residence at Rome City. That's why this isn't (for me...I understand why it is for you) a twi-related issue. I like the whole "spirit of giving" sort of explanation...in that sense, Santa is real enough for me. On a related note, I still chuckle when I think of Dorothy Owens whispering the forbidden "Merry Christmas" when we went through the greeting line before our big staff holiday dinner. In the words of Flavor Flav (who ever thought I'd quote him and Dororthy Owens in the same paragraph??), she "knew what time it was."

Joeoday said: I don't mean to sound flip, but come on. A problem is when an organization's postage machine runs out of postage. This personal prophecy crap isn't just a "problem"; it's a disaster of epic proportions, and IMO it's a symptom of a deep-rooted spiritual deception. What a sad situation. This doctrine can't be corrected. It needs to be uprooted and tossed in the incinerator, as far as I'm concerned. I can only hope and pray that those who are ensnared in this foolishness will somehow wake up and see daylignt.

Hear, hear, Trust&Obey. I second Krys's opinion.

I'm certianly not "scarred" as an adult over this issue, but I have a vivid memory of the anger and heartbreak I felt when an older playmate announced to me out of the blue that "Santa Claus isn't real." I was 4 or 5 years old. I can still clearly picture standing in her father's woodworking shop in the basement of their house, bathed in harsh fluorescent light, staring at her in disbelief. At first I argued with her. I just couldn't believe it. Then she convinced me, and I was so disappointed. Belle, you said: Since my son was 5 when I got into twi, my concern about whether to tell him there was a Santa or not had nothing to do with twi or with piety or religious overkill. Having had a bad experience as a child, I was worried about my son feeling likewise lied to and betrayed. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. :) I ended up weighing the risk that he'd feel betrayed vs. the risk of making him the only freak in kindergarten who didn't believe in Santa and succumbed to my parents' peer pressure to perpetuate the Santa myth. I didn't really have to tell him there was a Santa. Santa was in every department store and all over the TV. I just didn't tell him there wasn't a Santa, and when he started asking questions, I told him something like what Dooj has said. When he asked how Santa could be in all the stores, I told him those were all Santa's helpers, cuz Santa couldn't be everywhere. To my knowledge, my son has no post-Santa scars. :)

Thanks, Tom. I've been thinkin' it's about time to find that semi-retirement gig. Sounds perfect.

I'd be curious where they got the personal prrophecy bit, too. I'd only seen this doctrine once before, long ago, when I heard CES was into it. When I was hanging out with some hippie Christians in California in the late 60s, they were really into this stuff, and we were urged to write down the "prophecies" so we could refer to them again. The way it "worked" (it didn't really work!) was we'd sit in a circle and Susie would say, "Joe, would you prophecy for me?" Then Joe would "bring forth" words meant specifically for Susie. Usually the "messages" would be like, "Susie, I've called you to be my handmaiden for all time. Follow my path and reach out to others, and I will bless your way." Then the specific guidance crap crept in. People (whether intentionally or subconsciously) started to speak things that were coming from their own noggins (they probably did all along, really). I don't believe we have the right to demand prophetic messages from God. Nor do I see any scriptural basis for that. Do these people think God Almighty, the Creator, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, is their lap dog, who jumps to do their bidding? I don't see life/God working that way, and like I said before, it can be hurtful and even dangerous.

Dot, she was in the 7th Corps. All I remember about her (didn't know her all that well) was that she talked nonstop. When she got engaged, some of my friends and I figured that maybe her incessant talking was caused by horniness and that when she got married, it would stop. Sounds like we were wrong.