Linda Z

Wow, what a game! One more to go!!!!!!

Top of the 11th, 1 to 1. I don't think I can take much more of this!!

All I can say is: The Yankees looked a little surprised. Hahahah Simon, I saw that commercial about Lofton moving and cracked up over the timing, too. Oh, and sorry, Hap. I'm rooting for the Cubbies in the NL. If I heard correctly, it's been even longer for them than the Indians to have a World Series win.

penworks, he doesn't live in Lyndhurst, Ohio, anymore, and that's no longer his phone number. I had an e-mail address for him, but that's no good either because it was a local dial-up ISP. I remember somone telling me he moved, but I'll be darned if I can remember where. I'm just telling you this so you don't get disappointed if you try to contact him via the info on that Web site. It hasn't been updated since 1999, it says at the bottom of the opening page. I'm sorry I've lost touch with David, and I miss his insights on GSC.

It's the eve of the first playoff game, and I'm nervous Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Lifted! I figure if I don't voice my fear, it's not real. In fact: "Whenever I feel afraid I hold my head erect And whistle a happy tune So no one will suspect I'm afraid. "While shivering in my shoes I strike a careless pose And whistle a happy tune And no one ever knows I'm afraid." See? Like that.

Congrats to your daughter, ex10! How cool to meet a Nobel Prize winner at such a young age and get to "hang out" with him for a day. Did he have any words of wisdom or inspiration for her? I understand your trepidation about her traveling so far away, but I'm sure God will look after her and keep her safe and make her time there worthwhile. Oh, and here's what Wikipedia says about a "boda-boda":

Lifted Up: Not so much doubting as superstitious. I just don't like to get overconfident too early in the season for fear I'll jinx them! :) I also hope we can get past the Yankees.

Aha! So that's where my brand-new Bullinger Bible went?? The plot thickens. Actually, I really did lose a new Bullinger's at the Rock but can't remember if it happened in '81 or '82.

Lifted Up, this is for you: 2

I loved your post, wrdsandwrks. What gentle, loving, godly encouragement you bring to these forums. Thank you for that. Dot, you are correct in saying we should never use "just forgive them" as a weapon, in an effort to excuse or diminish or cover up the sins of people who have committed wrongs against God's precious ones. I'm sure you recognize, though, that not everyone who speaks in favor of forgiveness is doing that. There is a time for warning and there is a time for forgiving and a time for healing. I don't think those are mutually exclusive. Actually, I think very little bludgeoning has gone on in this thread; I'll grant you that hasn't always been the case in the past when the topic of forgiveness has been brought up. I also think that means we are making progress!! In my opinion, this might be the most constructive thread on the subject of forgiveness that I've ever read on GS, and I'm thankful to everyone who has contributed so far for keeping the discussion--which in the past has so often been knocked off the tracks by angry words, hurt feelings, and misunderstandings--loving and rational and civil. Hats off to all!!

Rascal, I'm not trying to argue, nor am I attempting to "twist the Scriptures." I'm just tryiing to understand forgiveness better. Since you challenged me to do so, I read the verse in its context again, and I'm not seeing where Jesus said, "until seventy times seven IF he repents." In the context of the whole parable, the servants did ask for patience, but I don't see where Jesus said that forgiveness is dependent upon repentance. Matthew 18: "21": Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? "22": Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. "23": Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. "24": And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. "25": But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. "26": The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. "27": Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. "28": But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. "29": And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. "30": And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. "31": So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. "32": Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: "33": Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? "34": And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. "35": So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Again, I don't see "if he repents." The question and answer in this account pertain to forgiving a brother. I'm sure some among us don't think that applies to any of the twi leadership who have hurt people, but that's a whole different discussion.

Hahahahaha, Belle. I have an edge, seeing as how I make a living trying to interpret mangled English.

See, that's the thing that gives me pause, Rascal. We aren't God. I'm not convinced that the requirements are the same for getting forgiveness from God and getting forgiveness from each other. I still wonder whether God tells us to repent so that we can get our hearts right, and therefore be able to accept his forgiveness. It seems like apples and oranges, maybe. On a human to human level, I see where Jesus told Peter to forgive 70 X 7--i.e., a LOT of times. And no, I don't think God is mean and hard-hearted at all.

I'll bet they meant "Place to be determined."

I Googled the expression "seventy times seven" because I figured it had to be a figure of speech. Several sites (representing a diverse bunch of denominations) said it's hyperbole. Makes sense to me. In other words, the answer to Peter's question was, "A LOT of times!!" Who's going to literally count to 490? Rascal, I don't for a fraction of a second think any of us can or should tell God what to do. I don't see where anyone has said that. Please explain.

Maybe it comes down to this: I can forgive someone for how his/her sin or wrongdoing affects me, but it's still up to that person to repent before God. We're all still accountable to God regardless of how we work things out (or don't) between ourselves. I may be able to let someone off my hook, but I sure wouldn't have the right or the ability to let that person off God's hook! Anyway...I think it would be interesting to study the Greek and Hebrew words for longsuffering and forbearance to see how they fit into the subject of people-to-people forgiveness.

There's been a lot to chew on in this thread. I've enjoyed everyone's posts, but I especially liked what Socks and doojable had to say about this subject. The "I will forgive them if they apologize" theme comes up periodically around here. Personally, I think it gives too much power (in the potential forgiver's mind and heart) to the ones who have committed the wrongs. It puts the forgiver in the position of being dependent on the wrongdoer for the cue to act. No way do I want to rely on someone who has wronged me to determine in my own heart what to do. I want my actions to be entirely independent of theirs. Otherwise it seems to me like they still have too much importance in my life. The current president of twi lied to me, manipulated situations affecting me and my future, and then trashed my reputation. I don't much like her, but if I forgive someone, that doesn't mean I have to like that person. It doesn't mean that I have to spend any time around that person. It certainly doesn't mean I have to lie down like a bath mat and let him or her walk on me one more time. T-Bone makes great distinctions between forgiveness and restoration, etc. Waiting for an apology is, IMO, like taking too much luggage on a trip. After you've lugged it around the airport awhile, it gets heavier and more annoying. Then when you get to your destination, you discover that you didn't really need that extra dozen pairs of socks anyway and when you get ready to go home, you just have to pack that extra bag again and haul it around some more. I think perhaps the reason God tells us to repent when seeking His forgiveness is because it's something we need to do to get our own heads right, not because he "has hurt feelings" and wants us to apologize before He'll forgive us. So the twi people who wronged me are the ones who would benefit from repenting, not me. I'm free to forgive or not forgive them regardless of what they do. Forgiveness doesn't erase the past. It just helps us stop dragging the past around like a boulder.

Hi, Hope! Thanks for the link. I loved looking at the photo...I'd forgotten how many people I once knew in the Sickth Corps. I hope you have a great turnout and a blast!

MStar said: Hey, I like the way you think! (and I'll bet Lifted Up wouldn't mind this, either) The magic number is now 3, isn't it, LU?

WG, I'm so sorry about Maxx, but I know you'll be comforted when you remember all the ways you made him feel special and safe and comfortable and loved. You're doing what's best for him, even though it's so difficult. You and your family (both the two-legged and four-legged ones) are in my prayers.

WrdsandWrks said: (It's like walking in a mine field around here.) That should be on a banner above the entrance to this place.

Psalmie, I enjoy reading you, too. Besides, any friend of piggies is a friend of mine! It's funny how different people rub some of us the wrong way. Some people have everyone else laughing hilariously or telling a certain poster he or she is the wisest person since Solomon, and I'm sitting here grinding my teeth and trying not to throw something. We huimans are complicated critters, I guess. I take the same approach you've described. When I see the names of people who really get my goat on a regular basis--and there are very very few of those around here--I just walk on by.

I don't have time right now to read this whole thread, so forgive me if I'm saying something that's already been said. I found it incredibly ironic when Geer, either in P of a P or in one of the meetings that followed, said we needed to get the focus off ourselves and our believing and back onto God. Well no chit, Cherlock. And how did our focus get on us and our believing in the first place? Could it have been because we were continually told "just believe" or asked "Where's your believing? or some other variation on that theme? I remember, a few years before I left twi for good, thinking that telling people to "just believe" had become no different from the admonition to "have more faith" that VPW always criticized. For all practical purposes it was the exact same thing! Something we could do. If I close my eyes and stick out my tongue just right and click my heels together, and just believe, voila! Magic. I'm much happier simply putting my trust in God because I know He loves me than trying to fend off every fleeting negative though that might pop into my head. I'm all in favor of being positive but IMO, twi promoted sort of an OCD version of being positive. :D

I think I opened a credit union account in '83 or so. I know I'd had the account for a while when I quit my job in '86. Maybe someone else who was on staff can remember more specifically.

Maybe I'm strange (hey, where is Tom S, anyway??), but I always see a lot of tongue-in-cheek in Bumpy's posts. The opening post in this thread just seemed like a "What if" scenario to me. I didn't see him saying Pawtucket should wipe the slate clean....just what would happen if. I really don't get where all the anger and hurt feelings are coming from. I don't think Bumpy meant to disrespect anyone, in this thread or in any other. He likes to poke around and provoke different ways of looking at things, and he's not afraid to give his opinion, but is that so bad? Heck, I could have used a little controversial food for thought back when I was living at HQ, where "likemindedness" ruled the day and one's own opinions were best kept to oneself, if one knew what was good for one, y'know? Psalmie, I do feel bad that you got your feelings hurt, because I think you have a sweet soul and I know you've been going through some difficult times lately. But I don't think Bumpy said what he said as a personal affront to you. And don't feel bad...I'm ignored about 95% of the time when I post here. It used to hurt my feelings, but I've gotten used to it. :ph34r: