Linda Z

That is truly one of the most bizarre schemes I've ever seen!! What a hoot!

You're absolutely right about that couple, RumRunner. They never bowed down to VP or lauded him as the MOG as far as I know, even though they'd been around since the Van Wert days. They were great people, great believers, and as a result they had a Twig that was the size of most branches. Ham, you raise a point that I think is key in what was wrong with twi: VPW gave young, inexperienced people way too much responsibility in dealing with people in the fellowships. I first noticed this when the 6th Corps, the first really large Corps group, started hitting the field. Don't get me wrong. I loved the enthusiasm of a lot of the young Corps back then, but too many of them were in way over their heads. The Way Corps was another cash cow for twi, and the more people who could be run through the program, the more the cash rolled in. We had one of those young 6th Corps guys come to oversee the Cleveland branch. I don't remember if it was his interim year or if he'd graduated. He was so arrogant and tried to be so controlling that I stopped going to fellowship and refused to have anything to do with twi for about a year. He would try to tell people in their 40s and 50s and 60s how to raise their children and run their lives. I'm surprised anyone stuck around under his regime. It wasn't entirely an age thing, though. In general, VPW had a real knack for putting the wrong people in positions of power at HQ, for example. Going on staff was the most severe culture shock I ever experienced while in twi. Seeing some of the so-called "pillars of the church" in action on a day-to-day basis was a real eye opener, and ultimately paved the way for me to make my exit. Of course some of the "old-timers" were wonderful, and my life was enriched for knowing them and working with them. But some of them....whew, they wouldn't have made it in the real world, and some of them had no business supervising anything more than a paper clip.

DWBH, thanks for filling in so many blanks. I must not have gone to that "Way presents" thing, or I'm sure I'd remember it. I have a vague recollection of having been in the "McN camp" for a short while after he got dumped, so maybe I opted not to go. I was initially pretty pi$$ed off that Bill was replaced, but I was too new and too naive to realize he'd been hijacked until years later. You're right about DD and JD becoming the Cleve and Lorain branch leaders. I don't remember what was going on in Lorain before that, but I do know DD had some big shoes to fill in Cleveland. Bill McN was extremely charismatic, mature, wise, loving. Dave, God bless him, was a young kid with a suit and a legalistic streak. In retrospect of course, it all makes sense that Bill McN got the same treatment as Heefner and Doop once the Cleveland area was booming, and that it coincided with the institution of the Way Tree hierarchy.

Excie, he believed in spanking. Spare the rod and all that. Love you, too!

Waysider, I only remember a little bit. I recall that the public reasons given for Bill McN's getting the boot were that his wife was running things in their house and that she was too overboard on natural remedies, health food and such. There was a lot of that going around. I remember some young girls deciding soap was bad and they would only bathe and wash their hair in plain water and wouldn't use deodorant. Eww. I remember clearly that the McN's and VP disagreed about spanking children. I liked Bill a lot. I found his wife a little cold. I went to one or two meetings at their house after he was no longer twi's area leader, but I don't recall him saying anything about twi's handling of the money. Of course it was a zillion years ago, so I might just be forgetting. That's not much, but it's all I've got, Waysider.

DWBH, thanks for taking the time to share all that. I'm sturck by the thought that perhaps your ordination confirms the old adage that says, "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then." Sorry to compare you to a nut (although you're a nut in the nicest sort of way!), but what I mean is that some good, loving, genuinely called-by-God people somehow got ordained under the auspices of twi despite whatever else was going on in the organization. You're one of those. There are a few others who hang out at Greasespot I'd put in that category, too--for example, our beloved Socks. I've thought a lot over the years about the dichotomy between the genuine revival many of us were part of in the early 70s and what we later learned was going on behind the scenes. To me, that revival--and the the excitement and joy, the signs, miracles and wonders it brought--are rock-solid evidence that if your heart is to seek God and help His people, He will reach you no matter what group you're in, no matter how screwed up the people supposedly "above" you in "leadership" roles are, no matter what. God is faithful. Always. I think another reason the dichotomy existed was because VPW himself was like two people. I'm not just talking about his "stage face" vs. his private demeanor. I'm talking about the times when he was genuinely loving and kind vs. the times when he let his lust and his greed and ill temper lead him to mistreat and abuse God's precious people. There were times when he ministered genuine healing (I know this because he did so both to me after I'd been badly injured in a car accident on my way to ROA '72 and to my son, who was forever after that day free of the frequent, severe ear infections he'd had throughout his 14 years up to that point). And then, in stark contrast, there were times when he claimed to be "ministering" to someone's broken heart when he was actually causing more heartbreak, for his own selfish gratification. Oy vey! No wonder any discussion about VPW quickly turns into a heated battle. Some people don't want to let go of the only slightly tarnished MOG image they have of him, and others don't want to acknowledge that he ever did one thing that was genuinely positive and good. There's quite a chasm between those two views! What bridges them for me is this: I believe VPW's ego and lust often got the better of him, but when that wasn't happening, he was capable of love and genuine spiritual insight. That's as far as I try to analyze it; I figure anything beyond that--getting into his motives and whether he was really a Christian at all, and similar topics of speculation--is better left to God.

Hey, simonzee, even whores have to have a clean place to park their tushies! Heheheheh that was just one of my cleaning biz accounts, a realtor who rented out rooms in a seedy apartment building. One day he intimated that the women who lived/passed through there were ladies of the evening. Mostly I cleaned empty houses for realtors before open houses were held. As for the question that started this thread, I wasn't ashamed. I believed and still believe that old adage about any honest labor being honorable (or however that goes).

Wasn't Harry already dead before twi owned the Gunnison property? I think he died in '76 or '77, and I never heard Gunnison mentioned until '78 or later, if I'm remembering correctly.

I was on staff when he was proclaiming that we needed to pray that Cleveland wouldn't succeed in its bid to become the location for the Rock Hall. Balderdash. I prayed that it would. I figured it was good for the economy, and I didn't buy into that twi tendency to spiritualize about every little thing in life. I also remember when we came to Cleveland from HQ to watch the Browns play the Patriots, and LCM said we had to root for the Pats because there were Wayfers on the team. Yeah sure, that was gonna happen.

I never stood in line for the showers nekkid either, and in the women's showers, we did have curtains. I just didn't like having to stand in line, even with my clothes on. Oh, and back to the topic... Didn't Eldridge Cleaver take PFAL? I seem to recall Ralph D talking about it at HQ.

The 9th Corps was there one of the times I went to Emporia, when we stopped for a couple days on our way to Gunnison for our graduating Corps week or whatever it was called. I don't remember if that was the time I was upstairs in the library and saw the glass floor. It might have been when I was there for the AC in '77. All I know is I saw the glass floor and remember being kinda freaked out, wondering how a glass floor could be safe to walk on.

Thanks, TheHighway. Interesting history. And I'm glad you confirmed that there were glass floors. I was only at Emporia twice, and my memory was fuzzy. I remember being a little nervous walking on those glass floors, too...just couldn't remember for sure where they were. :) Regardless of the fact that the labor was provided to twi, I think those who worked so hard to restore Anderson Library can be really proud that they saved a beautiful old building.

Rhino said: I did see that. You're making a leap in logic. I'm sure that you've heard that the letter of the law kills; the spirit (of the law) gives life. What if Daddy's a rotten murderer, or Mommy's a crack whore? C'mon Rhino, you're smarter than that. And what if one parent dies? The child could honor his/her parent's memory, but not the parent, correct? Again, a leap in logic. How is the state "changing traditional beliefs"? You're still free to believe whatever the heck you please, even if 2 million gay couples in California get married! I would contend that the state has no damn business determining which tratitional beliefs it should either promote or discourage. The point was that age 5, before she even knew what sex was, she felt like a boy. No, she was not abused. Yes, her father was in the home. The mother was not and is not gay. I didn't present a "case histroy." I merely pointed out that this issue doesn't revolve around sex, although people want to make that the big deal. I stated how I feel about this issue, and that's really all I wanted to say. That's why it took 10 pages before I got into this, because it's always such an interminable argument.

It seems to me that part of the reason this issue gets people all stirred up is that they think it's primarily about sex. It's not. I was friends with a woman and her two brothers many years ago. Because one of the brothers was a very popular Hollywood actor who took his own life at the peak of his career, there's a ton of info about him on the Internet. I was searching some biographical info about him recently and came across a quote from his sister's daughter when she was 5 years old. She was often known to say, "Don't call me Jennifer. Call me Bobby, like a boy." She was 5 years old. She didn't even know what sex was. Today Jennifer is gay, much to the chagrin of her fundamentalist Christian mother. I have neighbors, two elderly women, who were married in a church service back in the late 70s or early 80s. Of course the state of Ohio doesn't recognize gay marriage. So now that they're getting old, they have no assurance that if one becomes really ill, the other will have any say in her care, even though they've been together for about 30 years. That's just sad. On the Bible front, let's be logical for a minute. Don't you think if this were such a burning issue to God, He'd have put it in the Ten Commandments? Do you see anything in there that remotely resembles God's will re: homosexuality? I don't. Do you think God just forgot and decided to stick it in the Bible later? I don't think God would have made such a huge oversight, do you? Yes, I know there are other OT verses interpreted as God's forbidding homosexuality, but look at those 10 again. They pretty much cover every evil act that people can do to each other, and homosexuality is not in there! I think that's significant. "Where's rape," you might ask. I'd say rape would clearly fall under coveting and stealing. In the New Testament, those 10 are summed up in "Love God and love your naighbor." I don't see where loving my neighbor gives me license to stick my nose in my neighbor's business and tell him or her whom to love. NIKA, thank you for starting this thread. And God bless California and the rest of us!

Speaking of the Way College of Emporia, found this for a quarter at my recent postcard collectors' show and thought I'd get it to post here. It was a cool building. Didn't it have glass floors upstairs, or am I thinking of the theology library in Ft. Wayne where we worked on our research papers?

I don't have time to take proper care of a garden anymore, but when I mowed the lawn today, I discovered that some kind soul apparently has been planting dandelions and crabgrass.

I rarely waste my time arguing with you, Oldies, but I will say one thing about this: If someone had pushed this poor girl off a bridge, you'd say it was her fault because she shouldn't have been standing on a bridge.

Brushstroke, I don't think pond was angry. If I'm reading her correctly, I think she was just pointing out that there's balance needed, a balance between having knowledge of the Bible and acting on that knowledge by trusting God and loving Him and others. You raise a good point. It's true that knowledge puffs up but love edifies. It's not that we don't need any knowledge of God that we can gain via His Word. But having it all in your head, as some sort of intellectual exercise, isn't enough. WordWolf's point about JFK Jr. is a good one.

Thanks, Paw, but no, he doesn't use a land line. He only uses a cell phone, and Verizon wants $39.95 per month minimum added to his bill for wireless access. I thought you could pay for a card to stick in, but now I'm wondering if those are only good for use in places with "hot spots."

I was in California when the Kent State shootings happened. It broke my heart that something so inconceivable could have happened in my home state, on a campus where I'd spend so much time with friends who went there. I felt so betrayed and so vulnerable. It's painful to remember, but we mustn't forget. I don't think I can begin to adequately convey to someone who is too young to remember what that event did to the innocent hearts of so many young people. And that was just one assault on our hearts. Back then, the newscasts of the war weren't "sanitized" as they are today. We saw the body bags of hundreds of young kids being loaded onto the planes to send them home. On the nightly newscasts, foortage of young men with half their faces blown off, staring into the camera in pain and shock and fear, made the war in Vietnam starkly real and unspeakably disturbing. And for what? I still don't know, not really. I'd better stop right here before I cause this thread to get moved to the politics 'n 'tacks forum.

Hi shiftthis: You said: I must disagree. Things might be better in your local corner of the twi world, but believe me, all the bad leadership has not been weeded out. You see, I knew the current president of the organization when I was on HQ staff. She, according to her own depositions during the Martindale trial, had full knowledge of his sexual shenanigans, yet did nothing. She allegedly helped line him up with some of the women he took advantage of. Hardly the activity of a true Christian leader, wouldn't you agree? She's still there--not weeded out at all. Not only is she still there, but she's pretty much in charge. If I were you, that alone would be enough to get me to question whether everything is as it seems.

Thanks, former fellow Cleveburger! However, my son doesn't have cable. He wants to find the cheapest, yet still reliable, way to access the Internet from a laptop without signing up for cable or adding a minimum $39.95 charge to his Verizon bill. Anyone?

My son is looking for a way to get access on his laptop. Verizon's price for this access starts at $39.95/month, which seems pretty pricey to me. My friend at work has a card she pops in, but it only works in "hot spots" like airports, hotels, and Internet cafes. That's not reliable enough for what he needs. Does anyone know if there a less expensive alternative to Verizon's wireless Internet service?

Have a happy, joyous, spectacular birthday, Roy! You deserve it!! I don't know how holy they are, but Pooh is blowing you kisses.

Rhino, I don't know about other parts of the country, but there was apparently spying going on around HQ. I had resigned from HQ staff in 11/85 but got talked into staying until 3/86. I left 1 week before PoP was read to the Corps (and just happened to be on the Corps hook-up that night--holy moley!). I don't remember how much later it was when Walter C got the ax, but after he did, I went to a fellowship at his house with some other ex-staff from St. Marys. The next day, some of the people still on staff who were at that fellowship got booted from their jobs. Word was that someone (someone I'd known a long time :() would take one of her kids to the little playground next door to Walter's house on fellowship nights, take down names and license plate numbers, and report back on who was there. Pretty sad!