waysider

Ryan Welcome to The Cafe. The reason she refuses to even consider what you are saying is easy to explain. That is what she was programmed(notice I did not say taught) to do in session #7 of the Power For Abundant Living class. If she was a student of the newer version of the foundational class, she undoubtably got this same information but,not being a student of that version, I couldn't tell you where in that class it is presented. In essense, the teaching states that to even question what has been taught will lead to a downfall just as surely as it led to a downfall for Eve in the garden of Eden. It is(imo) a precurser to mind control and self delusion. It is a hard concept to overcome because,after all, the person feels that to even weigh the value of THAT teaching in itself could lead to their downfall. Ryan, there are some folks here who severed their ties with The Way many, many years ago and yet some still struggle with the idea of considering what they were taught with an open and inquistive mind. It is highly unlikey she will change her dedication to her beliefs without a lot of concentrated effort and a willingness to consider she may have been taught some things that were false. You can't "keep you mouth shut and grit you teeth" forever. From what you have posted, it does not appear that you are asking her to question God but rather a cult that claims to have the inside track. "Get on the bus, Gus and get yourself free!". That's just my opinion.

Yep, that would make me the oldest. I still remember the whole neighborhood coming outside at the same time to catch a glimpse of Sputnik :( Oh, it was Edd Byrnes(2 "d"s and an "s") Kookie was the nickname for his characters' real name which was Gerald LLoyd Kookson III.

Grandpaw, we got a new kitty cat! (Oh, that's nice!) It's a boy cat, wanna know how I can tell? (OK.) It's got whiskers!

If WTH had simply put "---------" around all but the phrase "That is the law of believing" and then stated "That is the law of believing", it would give an entirely different meaning to the post. It would then be simply a statement of description rather than a personal defense of the premise. I have no idea if that was WTHs' intent. Perhaps WTH can rejoin the discussion and clarify that point.

Are you saying you are not ready to answer it now? If not now, then when?

I only know about that stuff 'cause my Grandpaw told me. :)

It's never really Christmas without Clarence Carters' "Backdoor Santa". WARNING!-----Not intended for "family" listening.

Groucho------I must humbly disagree with you in comparing him to Jim Jones,Charley Manson and David Duke. ( The general public actually HEARD of those guys.)

Doctor to patient: "Zis fascination mit large esses, ven did it all shtart,hmmm?"

Geeze, Mudhead, where's your school spirit? It's in the rumble seat. Want a snort? :unsure:

Motherof2-----Here is what I remember from my days as a "wayfer". The teachings in TWI on Hebrews 11:1 stated that when one reads the word "faith" in Hebrews, it is to be interpreted as "believing". The reasoning for this is that they(TWI) taught that "faith" did not exist until the new birth became available. It all fell under a large umbrella of scripture that was used to validate the "law of believing". There is an old adage that states"seeing is believing". TWI used Heb. 11:1 and many other scriptures to turn that expression backwards so that it became"believe first and then you will see (the fruit of your believing)."Now, going one step further," you must take action on your believing before you will see results." There is, of course, some truth in this thinking. For example: You may need/want a better job. You send out resumes, interview with perpective employers and take various other actions associated with the job seeking process. Your "believing action" pays off and finally you see the result manifest itself as a new job. Now depending on where and when you were taught these things they would sometimes be twisted and contorted to take on a sort of "wishing things into existance" type of thinking. The problem that enters here is that simply wishing something is going to happen and picturing it happening do not make it actually happen. So, the axiom of "believing is seeing " is at its' root level a fallacy. This is where (imo) this concept of believing your way through the problems that life throws at you originated. It even got to a point where it was unacceptible to call a problem just that: a "problem." We called them "opportunities" because it implied that it was merely an "opportunity" to believe for a positive outcome. Along with this was the idea of "positive and negative confession". (Both outloud and in your thinking) because according to the catch phrase:"what you are confessing, you are possesing". This stuff can get quite convoluted and the mind has a tendency to want to rationalize things that logic tells you are nonsence. Sorry I rambled on. I don't know any quick way to get to the heart of what Hebrews chap. 11 supposedly was teaching us. That is not to say that there are not great truths in this section of scripture. I just don't believe(imo) that it can be used to prove the existance of some sort of magical "law of believing".

Stranger things than that have happened at The Hotel California! :blink: You're up, Wasway.

Thanks,HCW. Coming from someone with your background, that carries a lot of weight.

JonnyLingo-------My statement about doctors being seen as the enemy was specifically referring to the attitude and teachings that existed in Fellowlaborers in the mid '70's. We were in a rural setting and kept a tightly regulated schedule that stretched from 5am til midnight when all lights were to be out. To take time out to see a dentist or doctor was definately not something that was done without close scrutiny. I realize not everyone was in this situation or subjected to this kind of rigid behaviour. When anyone did see a dentist or doctor or eye doctor, it was a very big deal and many times people would "tough out " things that really would have been best served with medical attention. Sometimes the consequenses were long lasting and damaging. You had to get special permission to take time off for any kind of appointment and 50 other people were aware of your absence. As to life insurance being called "death insurance" I heard it taught too many times to count. I think perhaps the first one I heard to use this term was Uncle Harry but I don't know if that's where the term originated.

Dot It may appear at first glance that we disagree but I think that is because I was not very clear in how I interpreted TempleLadys' post. I agree with you on the post by OM. I also agree with you on the rebutal by WW. The difficulty arises in that I thought TLs' response was referring to the broad scope of God sorting things out at the Bema. Perhaps that is what she had in mind. Perhaps that is not at all what she had in mind. The bottom line is that I should not have assumed what she had in mind but rather I should have invited her to elaborate on her statement. Speaking only for myself, I do believe God will sort it all out at the appropriate time. I feel confident I can believe that because God himself gave me revelation to that effect just this morning as I was pumping gas during the greatest snowstorm anyone has seen in over 2,000 years. Fortunately, it let up just in time for me to get to the PFAL class on time. We learned some pretty amazing things there. For example: Jesus was Gods' son! I told my grandson Cletus(that's his name) and he said "Jeepers, Grandpa, who didn't know that?!" What has me puzzled is where he ever heard a word like "jeepers".

Some people never come clean. I think you know what I mean. You're walkin' the wire, pain and desire, Lookin' for love in between.

You betcha! Now if you will excuse me I have to catch the early show over at The Bijou. (Their playing "The Monster That Devoured Cleveland")

I'm pretty sure Mrs. Howell(Lovey) said that,so I'm going to toss in a new one. "I gotta kill that boy, I just gotta!" Bonus clue:"Now cut that out!"

Didn't The Temptations have an album called Christmas Tree or Christmas Card or something along those lines? BTW-----If you enjoy the Motown Sound, be sure to check out the dvd titled"Standing in the Shadows of Motown " It's a documentary about the musicians who played the music on all those hits. Good stuff!

That would be "Oh Holy Night" I'm not sure what artist to cite so whoever gets that, should probably get the next post (if that's OK.)

I too, had heard that his eye problem was caused by the studio lights. It was presented in a way that would make him appear to be a martyr. Of course, it could be true because the movie making process was so new in 1967( or whenever it was) that no one really knew the long term effects of spending a couple weeks on a movie set. As to the couple who were shown the door in the middle of the night, their exit was due to them participating in an activity that many young single people like to pursue. They were married within days of leaving but have long since divorced. There was also another couple who lost the child they were expecting due to her being required to run and do other physical activities even though she was clearly experiencing difficulties. If I recall correctly, the damage done was permanent and would have prevented the possibilty of future pregnancies. Another one of our FLO brothers suffered an injury that resulted in a very serious infection. He was advised to "get his believing up". He nearly died when sepsis set in and forced him to submit to medical treatment and a hospital stay. There were quite a few others who were shown the door too so I may be confusing these with the parties to whom you are referring. Doctors were definately seen as the enemy and it was considered a sign of spiritual weakness to even have medical insurance. Heck! Just think how much more you could ABS if only you didn't buy insurance!

Lookinging over my post, I realized I had missed an important point. I wasn't really trying to evoke a discussion of what God can or can not heal. Part of what I was trying to say was that these incidents weren't so much about seeing these people get blessed but more about how "wonderful" it would make our mission appear to the unbelievers. Now THERE'S love for ya'! "Trophies" is the word that would best describe it.

Sorry, never heard this one( though the subject matter seems to ring a bell.) :)

She also played Chris Elliotts' mother on "Get a Life" but I don't think there were any episodes that included musical numbers.

Motherof2----I suspect your relatives have been in TWI for a long time and seen many changes regarding the subject of healing. Initially, at least when I got involved in'71(?), There was not so much emphasis placed on what you had done wrong (though the idea was already present), but on seeing God as some sort of magician. In the first twig I attended there was a person who was missing a limb. What a victory it would be if only we and the person could believe for a new limb to sprout forth! There was a person in a neighboring fellowship who was a quadraplegic. No problem! Our magic formula of believing and confessing would surely right this situation. A friend of mine developed a very serious and acute medical condition. Leadership (at HQ level) scorned his fears and ridiculed his desire to deal with the situation medically. Consequenty, he died in short order. Of course, it was really his own fault for not being able to believe.( I'm hoping you see the sarcasm in that last sentence.) I could cited even more examples including one that involved me personally but I think I have made my point. If your relatives have been around since those days, that kind of thinking is probably deeply embedded in their core beliefs. As a parent, you have to do what is best for your child and that includes seeking professional medical help. If they are so concerned that God must deal out the healing let them know that you would welcome their prayers as a supplement. Be prepared though to hear them tell you the "burden of believing" falls on the parent. It used to be that some OT scripture was used to supposedly "prove" this. Prayer can work wonders but not when it is bridled by the conviction that nothing else should interfer. Children are a blessing. We must do whatever it takes to protect and nuture them whether it be medical,spiritual or a combination of both. (Just my opinion)